98 in BB, ugly hand, decisions on all streets

tl65\ · #1 05-20-2005, 07:02 AM

Party 30/60, 7 handed, EP raises. He is aggressive, something like 22/14, an unkonwn poster in mp calls, button calls, i call with 98o getting 7.5:1. I'm not sure if this call is good or not, but at the time i was feeling good about my play postflop.

Flop comes J,T,5 rainbow
I check, EP bets, poster raises, button 3-bets, i cap, all call.

Turn is an 8
Gets checked around

River is a Q
I bet, planning to call a raise

Basically, i'm thinking on the flop, if I can get AK to fold, that clears up 4 outs. When the turn comes, i really don't think anyone's going anywhere, so i dont think a bet will do any good.

comments?

DeeJ · #2 05-20-2005, 11:51 AM

PF: fine if you can get away from 8 or 9 as top or middle pair on flops [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Flop: Since everyone is coming along after you cap, the question is really whether it's a value raise. I would be calling 3 cold rather than capping, despite the fact it shows painfully obviously I'm on a straight draw. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Turn: what else are you gonna do? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

River: agreed, you hit the straight but so does AK (and K9). Would you call 2 if it were raised+reraised?

rigoletto · #3 05-20-2005, 12:19 PM

If you really want to clean up outs you should bet the flop and hope for a raise from EP!

BoneCollector · #4 05-20-2005, 12:58 PM

Preflop, the call is only so-so given the odds. I only like to call with an unsuited connector like this if the game is fairly passive, which it sounds like its not.

Flop, the most likely culprit for AK here is the EP raiser. since the game sounds aggressive, i dont think any of the other players would simply call cold preflop with AK. EP called the cap, this makes his holding of AK, less likely, but still possible with the potential pot size. I think only a call of the 3 bet is the right play here, and i even question that because you dont have the nut draw and KQ is very likely in that field.

I disagree with the turn thought. Although you are right that a bet might not move off many players, I don't particulary like the check here. The opponents are expecting a check-raise out of you given the "strength" youve shown on the flop. A bet here doesnt allow any free cards for the gutshot, and the pot now has 12.25 BB, so even if you bet and it is raised you are still getting odds for the straight if you can assume its good.

I agree with the river play, but I'd be suprised if you didnt run into broadway.

All and all, I think that this is a hand that shouldn't be played at all, but if you are going to cap the flop I don't think you should slow down.

BreakfastBurrito · #5 05-20-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A bet here doesnt allow any free cards for the gutshot, and the pot now has 12.25 BB, so even if you bet and it is raised you are still getting odds for the straight if you can assume its good

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think he needs to bet into 3 people who bet, raised and reraised on the flop in order to protect his 3rd pair against a gutshot draw?

I tend to fold this flop mainly out of worry about AK and facing multiple more bets on the turn. After capping, I think the line was fine.

BoneCollector · #6 05-20-2005, 05:13 PM

No, as I said in the original post, I didn't really like the play preflop or on the flop. What I was simply saying was that his original intention was to clear up the queen outs. His flop play didnt work, so therefore the best effort in continuing with this mentality for the turn is to lead. A check in this position looks to others like "bet so i can check raise you again." The only others at the table people who are going to bet this turn (given the flop play)are those with a set or 2 pair, which is what it may look like Hero's holding. It sounds like the others at the table are playing too loose, so whether or not they will respect the leading big bet is questionable, but it's the only real chance of getting a AK off the hand. His hand is weak, especially for the position, his 3rd pair is junk and he's drawing to 3rd nuts, his only chance at a win of a big pot.

In summary I'm saying you lead the turn to TRY and make a 4 outer an 8 outer. If you check and just call 1 bet, then you getting about 13.25:1 on a 10.5:1 shot, if you bet and no one raises but you push out AK (orK9), then you are getting 13.25:1 on a 4.75:1 shot.

What was the result?

flawless_victory · #7 05-20-2005, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, as I said in the original post, I didn't really like the play preflop or on the flop. What I was simply saying was that his original intention was to clear up the queen outs. His flop play didnt work, so therefore the best effort in continuing with this mentality for the turn is to lead. A check in this position looks to others like "bet so i can check raise you again." The only others at the table people who are going to bet this turn (given the flop play)are those with a set or 2 pair, which is what it may look like Hero's holding. It sounds like the others at the table are playing too loose, so whether or not they will respect the leading big bet is questionable, but it's the only real chance of getting a AK off the hand. His hand is weak, especially for the position, his 3rd pair is junk and he's drawing to 3rd nuts, his only chance at a win of a big pot.

In summary I'm saying you lead the turn to TRY and make a 4 outer an 8 outer. If you check and just call 1 bet, then you getting about 13.25:1 on a 10.5:1 shot, if you bet and no one raises but you push out AK (orK9), then you are getting 13.25:1 on a 4.75:1 shot.

What was the result?

[/ QUOTE ]your thinking is really screwed up. youre not going to make AK fold for one ebt on the turn EVER. if its still around its here to stay (barring a flurry of action).. the turn checkaround free card is awesome. it seems his cap actually got him a freebie OOP through 768 ppl. river play is obv. i would have played this hand exactly the same on all streets.

tl65\ · #8 05-21-2005, 12:38 AM

EP and the poster called the river bet. EP showed KQ and poster had K9 for a better straight.

tl65\ · #9 05-21-2005, 12:46 AM

Basically, when i get to the turn, i want to see the river as cheaply as possible and i really don't think betting is the best way to get there. Also, the pot's getting pretty big by this point, so i don't think anyone's folding AK (or K9) by the time they get there.