Is Villain a maniac?

[Jersey Nick]

x-posted in SS limit forum

Home Poker 1-2 HE (6 handed)

Very fishy home game, SB (Hero) and UTG+1 (Villain) are both loose-agressive and Dealer is a calling station.

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Villain calls, CO folds, Dealer calls, Hero raises, BB calls, Villain calls

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero bets, BB calls, Villain raises, Dealer calls, Hero calls, BB folds

Turn: (15 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets, Villain raises, Dealer calls, Hero calls

River: (13.5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets, Villain raises, Dealer calls, Hero calls

Final Pot: 19.5 BB

Winner: Villan UTG+1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero critiques Villain after showdown for staying with a gutshot. Villain claimed that semi-bluffing to run up the pot gave him better than correct odds to stick around.

Hypothetical action:
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Villain calls, CO folds, Dealer calls, Hero raises, BB calls, Villain calls

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero bets, BB calls, Villain calls, Dealer calls

Turn: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero bets, BB folds, Villain calls, Dealer calls

River: (9 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets, Villain raises, Dealer calls, Hero calls

Final Pot: 15 BB

Winner: Villan UTG+1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Here’s my thought: Villain is 10.5 to 1 to make his draw. Against Hero and the calling station, the implied odds were right for Villain to just lay back and call through the turn – he didn’t need to raise up the pot. Building the pot to 13.5 bb at the turn with a gutshot draw makes Villain a bit of a maniac.

Does this analysis seem correct? Any thoughts other than "how can I get into this game"?

[Lottery Larry]

While we are questioning players...

What is the BB doing, cold-calling a flop bet from the preflop raiser, then folding for one more after two have called? What could he have had?

What are Queens doing betting into an Ace on the river after the turn was raised? Was he THAT much of a maniac? (this hand aside, of course). I'd be a little worried about the calling station as well.

"Building the pot to 13.5 bb at the turn with a gutshot draw makes Villain a bit of a maniac."

The logic process is what makes him an idiot.

"Any thoughts other than "how can I get into this game"?
Yeah, how about raising the stakes when I get there?
:P

[Jersey Nick]

[ QUOTE ]
While we are questioning players...

What is the BB doing, cold-calling a flop bet from the preflop raiser, then folding for one more after two have called? What could he have had?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anything – social player who can remember every card played in a Hearts game, but will chase any weird hand in Poker. He plays in this game for a guy’s evening out.

[ QUOTE ]
What are Queens doing betting into an Ace on the river after the turn was raised? Was he THAT much of a maniac? (this hand aside, of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy loves NL and is vexed at having to lay down a big pair in a limit game.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be a little worried about the calling station as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one was worried about him. He was on his 3rd buy-in. He was holding the 17 and 23 of purple horseshoes.

[ QUOTE ]
"Building the pot to 13.5 bb at the turn with a gutshot draw makes Villain a bit of a maniac."

The logic process is what makes him an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain tries to act like he is unpredictable and will change gears a lot, but the other players in the game just think he’s a jackass.

[ QUOTE ]
"Any thoughts other than "how can I get into this game"?
Yeah, how about raising the stakes when I get there?
:P

[/ QUOTE ]

These are my fish and I’m not sharing them with anyone.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
What are Queens doing betting into an Ace on the river after the turn was raised? Was he THAT much of a maniac? (this hand aside, of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

"This guy loves NL and is vexed at having to lay down a big pair in a limit game."

I don't think I would have laid them down either, given the game. I wouldn't have bet the river with the Queens, unless value betting gains THAT much in this game. It sounds as if it might...

"These are my fish and I’m not sharing them with anyone. "

Sure, ask for my help, then refuse to pay me.

[pie taster]

Villain's excuse would have been more rational if he stated that after the flop (which looked raggedy), his raise was an attempt to get a free card on the turn. Which didn't work.

The raise on the turn doesn't really make sense unless he felt that you did not have an ace and wanted to attempt a bluff, which meant it was a really bad bluff attempt.

So bad plays, but won the pot.. what are you going to do. Jamming the pot is much better with better draws than a gut shot.

[Jersey Nick]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, ask for my help, then refuse to pay me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Larry,

Thanks for your post. It’s time for me to come clean - I'm the Jackass Villain.

Our home game has just undergone a betting structure change. We used to play a $0.50/$3.00 spread limit with a $0.50 ante. Some of the beginners were taking a beating and the game was becoming less than fun for them. I suggested that we change to a 1/1/2/2 structured limit game with blinds. My thought was that it would reduce the variance for the bad players (read everyone) and keep the game friendly. Hero liked the spread limit game a little better because it made it easier for him to push players out of the pot when he was holding a big pocket pair.

When Hero raised pre-flop, I put him on a big pocket pair and decided to jam the pot with the hopes of a river suck-out. I jokingly said to Hero that I jammed the pot to get the right odds. He didn’t buy it for a second and knew that I just did it to irritate him. That’s what friends are for.

I honestly had no idea what the pot odds were – I wasn’t even counting bets. But then I got to thinking, what would be the correct time to make the gutshot call in this game? I’ve been having a difficult time understanding implied odds in this type of situation. I started playing with the numbers trying to figure it out. I think the answer is that the pot would have to be closer to 10 bb on the turn when the action first got to me, and that would have required more callers. Agree?

So that was the real motive behind this post. I also did it to hear people make fun of our play and say that the Villain was an idiot. My wish came true.

Thanks again,
Nick

[Lottery Larry]

Thanks for your post. It’s time for me to come clean - I'm the Jackass Villain.

** That's NOT the payment I was looking for. Nor do I think you're a jackass- I think you made an incorrect play/comment.
This specifically is what I was referring to with my logic process comment:
"Villain claimed that semi-bluffing to run up the pot gave him better than correct odds to stick around." (and I'll include this followup statement "I put him on a big pocket pair and decided to jam the pot with the hopes of a river suck-out")

1) You can't semi-bluff if there is no chance of everyone folding. They're not betting into this flop without something to stick around with.

2) There are WAY too many cards that could come out that make your gutshot NOT the ideal suckout hand. This is especially true for limit, where you have no implied odds for this type of play. NL is another matter.

" I jokingly said to Hero that I jammed the pot to get the right odds. He didn’t buy it for a second and knew that I just did it to irritate him. " **I deem you less of an idiot now :P

"I honestly had no idea what the pot odds were – I wasn’t even counting bets. But then I got to thinking, what would be the correct time to make the gutshot call in this game? "

** You'd need a bigger field to give you the odds, and after the flop and turn, your odds are considerably worse (pot- and drawing-odds).

Raising the turn to represent the Ace is fine, if you don't put limper on an Ace. This is especially true because it can only cost you a few bets, rather than your whole stack.
Is your play that crazy normally that the Queens thought he was value-betting the river?

"I also did it to hear people make fun of our play and say that the Villain was an idiot. My wish came true."

** That's me, the wish-fulfiller
LL

[Jersey Nick]

LL,

** That's NOT the payment I was looking for. Nor do I think you're a jackass- I think you made an incorrect play/comment.

2 hours is a long drive for a 1/2 game, but if we ever double the stakes I'll PM you. I jokingly called myself a jackass in my post above “Villain tries to act like he is unpredictable and will change gears a lot, but the other players in the game just think he’s a jackass.”

** Is your play that crazy normally that the Queens thought he was value-betting the river?

Neither of us usually play that crazy. I was playing straight off of the Miller SSHE chart for the majority of the night. The truly crazy hand was the last hand of the night. (Brag alert) O8, I held 23[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 48[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] betting was capped 4 ways pre-flop. A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], chips fly. Turn 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] more chips fly. River Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Final Pot 28 bb – I scoop.

Thanks again for your post.
Nick