Hypothetical question: completing in the SB

[crunchy1]

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Let's use an extreme example. Say the rake is 1 bet. The pot currently has 4 bets in it, 1 of which will be removed. Your hand has a 4-1 chance of hitting, let's say you are all in for simplicity's sake. If you don't count the rake, your call has an expectation of 0. If you do factor in the rake, you should fold. Why? Because 1 bet will be removed. By not ever factoring rake, you are essentially adding money to the pot that isn't there. Again, I don't think there are many situations where that matters that much, but mathematically speaking, pretending there is no rake is overinflating the pot, since you are pretending there is more money in the pot than there is/will be should you win it.
As far as factoring how much, well, it depends. At the super loose B&M games, where rake is about $5 in a maxed out pot in a 5/10 game, I just remove the sb from consideration preflop ($2) if there are many people in, and deduct a full small bet in total once we get some substanital action on the flop. I can't be sure that it's ever mattered, but mathematically speaking, it matters.

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You never answered any of my questions.

[chief444]

Crunchy,

The rake should be considered, if it makes any sort of difference.

And technically it's taken out at the end of each betting round.

Chief

[damaniac]

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Don't take the rake into account when factoring pot odds.

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Why not? Granted, it is rarely going to swing a play one way or the other, most especially in a large pot, but it represents the money you will actually win, since the pot will be smaller than normal due to the rake.

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The OP extracts 1 SB to adjust his pot odds for the rake - justify this. Why only adjust to 1SB? Why not 2SB? Why not the max - 6SB?

I've never seen anyone ever take into account the rake when factoring pot odds. Maybe they are and it's me that's behind the times but, I doubt it. You can never accurately predict future action which, in turn, means that you could never accurately factor the 'true' rake - so why take it into account in the first place?

The rake, technically, isn't even taken from the pot until the end of the hand - so in reality it's still a part of the pot until the hand has reached showdown or everyone involved has folded.

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Actually it IS taken out of the pot during the hand. You know the little chips that appear at the top of the screen next to the dealer? Or the chips the live dealer pulls out DURING the hand?

You don't need to take an exact amount when factoring rake, but in the initial example with 20 sb's, $2 would be taken out at that point, so you can consider them gone. You don't need to estimate future rake if you don't want to. But at least consider the money that is already out of the pot.

You can't calculate implied odds with complete accuracy, either, but if you fail to account for future bets that are likely to occur or not occur, you are going to make mistakes.

Finally, when is the max rake 6 sb's? MAYBE .50/1. Nowhere else is it even close to that.

Again, I don't think most people factor it in, I don't think it will do much if anything to your winrate if you don't. This whole debate is dumb. But, you're wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[crunchy1]

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And technically it's taken out at the end of each betting round.


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You're right. I guess with the given examples all ending after 1 street of action I was just thinking "end-of-the-hand".

[crunchy1]

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Again, I don't think most people factor it in, I don't think it will do much if anything to your winrate if you don't. This whole debate is dumb. But, you're wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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At least we can agree on something!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm just perplexed that if this was really that big of a deal - then why have I never seen it mentioned here before?

[chief444]

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I'm just perplexed that if this was really that big of a deal - then why have I never seen it mentioned here before?

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Because it's not really a big deal. And the hand converter accounts for the rake taken for online hands anyway.