Countering a LAG who's a good reader

[RiverDood]

It's curious that everyone is assuming that he's unreadable -- and thus is suggesting that you tinker with your betting patterns.

Hey, this is a live game! Before you turn your playing style inside out, spend some time watching Mr. LAG. He needs to pick up his cards, look at them, put them back down, etc. He needs to grab his chips, push them into the pot, etc. And he surely will have times when he's chatty and times when he's mute.

Break his activity down, frame by frame, and see what you can discern. Buy Mike Caro's book of tells. A guy who plays so many hands for so many reasons has got to be giving you something to work with.

By the end of the night, you should know when he's got JJ and when he's got Jacksh*t. That will make it a lot easier.

Of course, you may read him perfectly and still lose to a 3-outer. But then you'll have the consolation of knowing that you should have won.

[ACW]

One thing you could try is to adopt his style in an online game at stakes you don't mind losing at. See how people react to you, and make a note of the moves they make that give you difficult decisions. This should give you some ammunition to use in your next home game.

Note that the idea is to experiment and learn, not to win.
Of course, you just might find that you win more playing this way!

[NiceCatch]

You need to make him fear you. You have to willing to lose a few buy-ins. You have to be willing to go all-in without the nuts (and sometimes without a hand). When you pull a great bluff and he folds, show it to him. You always want to reinforce the idea to someone that they are making incorrect decisions.

Play non-dominated hands preflop against him, and be aggressive with them. Raise them in position.

I'd suggest that you initially tighten up preflop, wait for the right situation (where you feel he is a bit weak), then pounce. If you have a hand, great. If you don't, that's ok... the idea that you are willing to play some poker (and not just your cards) is never something that your opponents want to see.

I think the advice about picking up some tells on the guy was excellent.

[LockLow34]

Earlier this year I was playing NL with a player much like the one you describe. He hated being out of a hand, but at the same time was very good at reading opponents, smelling weakness, etc.

When I first started playing against him I was intimidated, unsure of where I stood in a hand against him. I was outplayed by him a number of times. Then I realized the best strategy was to use his looseness against him.

I decided to adopt a strategy against him that if I was in a pot with him I would play small pots when I didn't have anything and play big pots when I did have something. I would also be more loose against him than any other player.

Couple of example hands I can recall (details are a bit fuzzy but this one is etched in my memory):
I was seated to his immediate left. He had about $200 and I had about $150. Blinds $1/$2.

In LP I was dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] He raised to $11 and I re-raised to $22. He called.

Flop came A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bet out and I raised to $60. I had him on a medium ace or maybe a flush draw or even a straight draw. He called.

Turn was 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

He checked and I pushed my remaining stack ~$60. He went into the tank, so I chided him, saying that if he had to think about it I wanted his call. He called and turned over Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

River was J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Not a bad beat, as I'll take having all my chips in the middle as a 70%+ favorite going to the river anytime.

---------------------------------

Immediately following that I rebought for $100. When I was next in the BB I had 55 (suits don't matter). One loose player limped in MP and LAG to my right raised to $20. I pushed. I wouldn't have done this against any other player but with the LAG who is willing to play any 2 cards in a raised pot I figured my 55 was at worst a 52/48 favorite. He called and turned over A3o. No ace came and I doubled up. Later on I took another big pot from him with ATo; again that's a hand that's marginal against most players but I figured was a decent favorite against him.

By the end of the night I was no longer intimidated by him and I could tell he was thinking much more when he was in a hand with me than with any other player. The following night, playing 5/10 against him, I had him so confused he was calling me down with ace-high. When I saw that I knew that my strategy and tactics were paying off.

Unfortunately it's been more than a month since I've played with him, but maybe I'll get the chance again soon. We'll see.

[Dubious]

I'm in a bi-weekly limit poker game with a very similar player. He seems to see way too many hands and raises/check raises way too often, but always ends up ahead at the end of the night. I've made a few simple rules for beating him and they've been working the last year or so:

1) Fold early if I don't hit anything. If he shows his 9-3 offsuit, that's fine. I can't let it bother me. I can't be in a hand against him unless I can beat a hand that he'd play aggressively.

2) Isolate him when I have position. If he raises preflop, I should reraise. When we're heads up, he's much more likely to be aggressive out of position and I am the one deciding whether to raise or fold.

3) Raise or fold everywhere but the river. The pot needs to be small when he wins (because I folded) or huge when I have a probable edge. Calling because he might have nothing is a bad move.

4) Always call a river bet. If I've followed my previous advice, the pot odds should be huge anyway here.

5) Bring enough money and remember he gets great hands too. Don't worry if I raise top pair into his flopped straight. I'll win in the long run.

[AnyTwoCanLose]

He sounds like a typical very good but not great player. His only leak is that he plays too many hands.

Let him bluff and bluff and bluff... when you get a great hand... raise. Occasionally raise when you don't have it.

Let HIM guess.

You'll have to play great poker against him. If his "reads" are what confound you... find weaker opponents.

He might simply be better than you. That's okay to admit.

[Malachii]

Thank you everyone for the good ideas. For the most part, they've been very helpful.

Here are the adjustments that I'm going to make the next time I play him:

1.) Do a better job of paying attention to detail when I'm not in a hand. Try to pick up tells and develop a better read on him. As Doyle says "Pay attention, and it will pay you."

2.) Try to sit to his immediate left.

3.) Play very tightly preflop, but use "the hammer" when I come into a hand and he's already in it. Since his average starting hand is significantly worse than mine, making big preflop raises is going to be a +EV move for me, even if it increases volatility.

4.) Never call his bets. Either fold or make a large, potsized raise on the flop. This will make me harder to read and make him do the guessing, instead of me.

5.) Not fold to his bets as long as I have top pair or better and am getting decent pot odds, unless I start getting "I have a monster hand" vibes from him. This is something that I'm good at detecting.

6.) Defend the money that I put in the pot preflop, even if it costs me a buy in or two by taking the worst of it if we get it all in.

If anyone can think of anything that needs to be added to this list, please let me know. And once again, thanks for the replys.

[NiceCatch]

One last thing. Don't get caught up in his game; i.e., you will need to be aggressive, but be ultra-careful of tilting and playing too many hands. You will be giving and getting more action from him in certain hands; make sure you are in control of the hand, and make sure that you are making good clear decisions at all times.

Sometimes dropping a buy-in or two (even correctly) can make a player lose perspective. Beware of this.

[Guruman]

I like most of your list.

[ QUOTE ]

6.) Defend the money that I put in the pot preflop, even if it costs me a buy in or two by taking the worst of it if we get it all in.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd disagree with nuber six on your list there though. Never move in if you think you have the worst of it.

Ego will kill you against this type of player faster than anything else. A pre-flop raise does not have to mean all in or nothing by showdown against this type of player. Play solid postflop against him, not reckless. An edge can be worth a rebuy - ego is not. Make no mistake - defending your part of the pot is not an edge. It's ego. You'll need a much more solid approach there if you want his chips.

[Dan Mezick]

"Unfortunately, I feel like he has gotten a good read of my play (which lately has gotten very predictable.)"

...you seem to be saying "Weak Tight". Isn't this what you mean?


"I need to mix up my play and find effective countermeasures to his play. I'm curious about how I can mix up my betting patterns and counter his hand reading ability. Also, does calling against a good hand reader just give away too much information? Should my default play be raising or folding?

...when you call, you get NO information. Experiment with coming on for a raise or folding. Raising gets you more information (more than "none", which is what you get by calling) and it puts the other guy on a decision.