I'm not a winning player at Party 5/10

[soah]

It's time to take a break and play some different games before I kill my bankroll. I'm down about 12k in the past week or so at the 5/10 shorthanded tables, and I've reached the point where I can no longer believe that my losing is purely a result of bad luck. I've been a big winner at most smaller NL games that I've played, and even when I've been stuck in bad games I've always at least been able to break even. So I'm having a hard time understanding why I've lost so much this past week. I'm not playing big pots with one pair. I'm not calling raises with dominated hands. I bet the same with nothing as I do with my made hands. I read 2+2 daily and absorb all the information I can find. What do my opponents know that I don't?

I've tried being a rock, and only playing premium hands. I've tried raising preflop with any broadways, any pair, and offsuit connectors, and any suited connectors or one-gappers (with some adjustments for position) and I've tried various mixtures between the two extremes. I've tried slowplaying and fastplaying. Nothing so far has been profitable. Mostly though it just seems that I am getting outplayed postflop. It's not easy for me to read my opponent's hands... sometimes I will be sure they are on a draw and I will try to blow them out on the turn, only to get checkraised... more often than not, when much money is going into the pot, my hand is no good.

At first I thought I was just running bad; that I simply wasn't lucky enough for anyone to ever have a hand capable of paying off my monsters. I've been playing LAG and finally get JJ and catch a flop of AJx and my opponent folds... why can't they have AK that time? I feel like I've been pissing away money on missed flops and busted steals just so that I can get paid off when no one believes me... and instead I take down a $60 pot. Some guy goes on tilt and starts steaming away his money before leaving the table... 10 minutes later he shows up at my other table and takes my stack with AA vs KK. How could I see that coming? I get $140 in preflop with AA against a smart LAG, and he checkraises me on a monotone flop... wtf? He flopped a flush with T6s.

So how much of my little downswing can be attributed to bad luck, and how much is the result of bad play? While my luck certainly hasn't been the best, I don't think that luck alone can account for 12 dropped buy-ins. Apparently I am paying people off in spots where they would not pay me off if our positions were reversed... I just can't seem to figure out where, or why.

I really don't know what type of feedback I'm expecting here (and I'm not posting this just to whine, although it will perhaps come off that way). But hopefully some of you will have some words of wisdom for me to maybe get me back on track so I can take another shot soon. But until then, I'll be grinding it out elsewhere... I tried out the Stars 2/4 6-max games on a whim today and found them to be extremely donktastic (all-in $200 preflop with 72o... wow).

[Big FAT L0ser]

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I'm not a winning player at Party 5/10


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Everybody reaches their plateau Soah. I think the NL $400 is yours.

Just be a nut-peddler...it'll work. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[kagame]

youd probably be amazed at how bad the full ring 1000NL players are compared to the SH/6MAX people

dont be down on yourself, try some 3/6 6max or ring id suggest, anything but the shorthanded 5/10

maybe youve just got unlucky with waiting listing onto highly skilled tables, no way to know this short term

if you keep working things will turn around, just keep your cool

[Ezcheeze]

Soah, I've played with you several times in the 5/10 blind pot limit 6max games and I believe luck has little to do with your bad run. For the most part you are tight-predictable and that just doesn't cut it at a 6max pot limti game with thinking players. When most of the players alwyas know what you have within a small range and pick up on your betting patterns then you can't beat them period.

You aren't going to learn how to beat the 5/10 games by reading 2+2. Either you have it in you to learn to beat it and will, or you don't. Def drop down in limits where you know for sure you can win, and just keep looking for ways to beat people.

-Ezcheeze

[AZK]

How about trying some 5/10 full ring for a little bit, until you get your confidence back? Or like others have suggested, try 2/4 6max or 3/6 6max, see how it goes.

It's better that you recognize this now, and have the maturity to accept it, rather than blow your entire roll (or about 3/4) at a limit you can't handle. Speaking from personal experience.

[flawless_victory]

well 12k is nothing in this game if youre playing pretty fast.... however, judging by tour posts on this forum, i think youre prob right about not being able to beat this game yet.

[soah]

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Soah, I've played with you several times in the 5/10 blind pot limit 6max games and I believe luck has little to do with your bad run. For the most part you are tight-predictable and that just doesn't cut it at a 6max pot limti game with thinking players.

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I don't when I've played with you, but as I mentioned in my initial post, I've experimented with several different styles. You may have played with me while I was in rock mode, but there were also some sessions where I felt like my main problem was that I was bluffing too much. Like, I raise preflop with 75s and the flop comes A95 with one of my suit and my opponent checkraises the minimum and I call (a pretty dubious call, I must admit)... I pick up a flush draw on the turn, my opponent bets weak so I try to blow him off his hand with a pretty decent raise... but he calls. I get no help on the river, my opponent checks and I push (this bet was something like 3/4 the size of the pot), he calls with AKo. There went one buy-in.

That hand just sorta [censored] with my head a bit... I can never get people to put their whole stack in with one pair when I have a big hand... so why the hell can't I get them to lay it down on one of the rare occassions that I decide to run a big bluff? I still can't figure out if that guy was a genius, or retarded. As far as I can tell, my play should look like a set or two pair... not a bluff.

[Ezcheeze]

This is not my handle on party. Thats good that you try to mix up your game but doing just that doesn't work.

Look at my response to the hand you posted about the overpair TT. It's clear you don't have a good enough idea of how your opponents think. HOw they play and how they think you play and how the prvious hands you have played affect it. That is the key, once you get in their head you will win unless they are good enough to anticipate what you're doing.

[soah]

I know... the problem is that people seem to do a better job of getting into my head than vice versa.

Against poorer players my hand reading is very good... I mentioned that I played the 2/4 6-max at Stars today... it felt like my opponents' were turning their cards face up. They bet weak with weak hands, bet strong with strong hands... I could call down with second pair when it was good, and get away from top pair when it was no good...

At the Party games it feels like I'm always one step behind... when I think someone is putting a move on me, my top pair is no good... when I think top pair is no good, I get shown a bluff.

I appreciate your attempts to help... I just don't know how to take your advice and actually apply it. I know that hand reading/knowing your opponents is important... I just can't seem to actually do it at this level, and I'm still not quite sure why not.

[Ezcheeze]

Well it takes time. I'm not saying I'm a hand reading genius but I have done well at these limits. The best thing to do is get tons of practice. And multitabling with the tv or instant messanger on doesn't count. I say take some time to play just one table and really focus on your opponents. Try to understand the impact certain hands have on your opponents' play (and on your play, your own mind is a great window into your opponents). Experiment with creating a certain image and then exploitin it. Sometimes I'll just bluff bluff bluff the whole way knowing thers a good chance I'll get called just so the table sees that I'm capable of it. Then I try to exploit that by playing good hands in a similar fashion so my opponents can't tellt he difference between a value bet and bluff. Theres countless things you can do cause your opponents to make mistakes.

Practice. Practice. Practice. Make a real attempt to understan how your opponents were thinking during a hand. Always look back at the hand history and try to figure out what all the players were thinking, and why, and what they could have done differently.

Good luck, and I hope this helps.

-Ezcheeze