Should I be pissed??

[34TheTruth34]

I'm playing in a pot limit omaha high tournament. The blinds are high at 300-600. I have a below average stack (about 2500) and I'm in the BB. At the table is Mr. Play-Every-Hand-And-Bet-Every-Flop. He's got a huge stack (~12000) because he plays every hand and bets all the way through. He's shown down some really bad hands, but every time he's bet, he's either had the winner or everyone has folded. Almost a maniac, but one who doesn't raise.

So anyway, I have a total garbage hand in the BB, K-x-x-x. EP caller, Mr. P. calls, LP caller. Four of us see the flop, pot is $2700. Flop K-7-7 rainbow.

I check, EP checks, Mr. P. bets (of course) $600, LP folds and it's back to me. I decide that there's no reason to believe that Mr. P. has a king, let alone a seven and decide to make a move, as the only one I have to get through is the EP caller. I check-raise my entire stack all-in, just like I would have if I had a seven. EP folds and it's back on Mr. P., who thinks and thinks and finally calls the last $1900. This worries me because he probably has a king, probably with a better kicker than mine.

Not even close, he has T-T-9-8, practically no outs barring some kind of miracle runner-runner straight draw (which is probably what he was calling hoping to hit anyway). Of course, a 7 hits the turn giving him a full house and I'm out.

So, should I be upset about this? Did I get really screwed or is his call reasonable? I don't play a lot of PLOH, but it seems like I was a huge favorite and that he shouldn't have made the call, especially considering that I played it like I had a seven. Thanks to anyone who responds...

[Moose]

I didn't even need to read the post to know that A> It was a bad beat story and B> that the answer to your question is "no". If you got cheated, colluded, or the dealer was sassy to you, then get pissed.

Having said that - no offense intended - you showed pretty bad judgement. There are better pots to make a move against Mr. P than something marginal like top pair weak kicker, as you did. If he really is that reliable, pass up on tiny edges with big variance and wait until you REALLY have him by the cookies on such a flop. Even AA is a far better holding to play through against a maniac on a paired board than top pair weak kicker. As it was, you were lucky that the maniac didn't have some K-x-x-x hand like yours with a bigger 'x', or god-forbid, even a 7. When you have AA, there are LOTS fewer hands that the maniac could have that would give him a good shot at the pot.

He's here to gamble. Pick a better spot.

M.

[34TheTruth34]

Thanks for the response, even though I pretty much disagree with everything you said.


I didn't even need to read the post to know that A> It was a bad beat story

Maybe you should go back through and reread it then. I wasn't trying to tell a bad beat story, if anything, I was asking if it was a bad beat. Having not played a lot of PLOH, I'm not sure, but it looked like a bad call to me.


no offense intended

You will never offend me by commenting on my play. That is, after all, what I would like you to do. You will offend me, however, if you respond to my post with garbage like accusing me of telling bad beat stories.


you showed pretty bad judgement. There are better pots to make a move against Mr. P than something marginal like top pair weak kicker

What are you talking about?? I surveyed the situation and came up with a plan based on the information I had. Considering his hand, I think I made a very good decision. How does it matter if I had something marginal if what I had was better than what he had?


Even AA is a far better holding to play... When you have AA, there are LOTS fewer hands that the maniac could have that would give him a good shot at the pot.

Hold on, let me look through the deck and pick out two aces to put into my hand.......C'mon, dude, my hand was what it was. Yes, in a perfect world I'd have AA or even 77 in this case, but I judged that my hand was best and acted on it.


He's here to gamble

Which is why I figured my hand was good and thus made the move.


Pick a better spot

He had FOUR OUTS in addition to any runner-runner straights. I thought the spot was pretty good. Not only that, I only have a few more trips around the table, I may never see AA. I could definitely have found a better hand by then, but I still think the play, given the situation as I described, is reasonable.


Once again, my question was, AS IT RELATES TO TOURNAMENT PLAY, did my opponent make the correct call here considering that it was "only" like 1/6 of his stack, or should he have folded. If you would like to answer my question, feel free...

[Mike Haven]

that was a pretty aggressive response to moose's honestly composed reply - i hope you haven't put others off answering for fear of your wrath!

in your first post you said the guy's name was "Mr. Play-Every-Hand-And-Bet-Every-Flop"

you said "He's got a huge stack (~12000) because he plays every hand and bets all the way through"

you said "every time he's bet, he's either had the winner or everyone has folded" so he thinks he's on a roll

you're in the bb and the blinds are high relative to your last 1900 if you don't play this hand

you said he is "one who doesn't raise" but you "decide that there's no reason to believe that Mr. P. has a king, let alone a seven"

you ask "should he have folded?"

like moose, i think this is the wrong question to ask, but, i can see a lot of players calling in these particular circumstances

you're quite likely to be trying a move on this probable last occasion where you have a big pot to shoot at and he could well think he might be winning;
if he calls and loses he is competing against your 7100 with his 8900 and still with 8000 after his next blinds;
if he calls and wins either because he is already winning or because he hits his 10 to 1 shot he has 16000 and you're out of there

[DaNoob]

I agree with Mike. If you're going to take that much offense when people voice their opinions on your play, you should consider posting your hands somewhere else.

That being said, I would generally agree that this is a good place to make a stand. Top pair, weak kicker with a paired board is a very dangerous hand to go all-in on, but if you're sure it'll just be you and the idiot in the hand, it may not be a bad play. I don't think calling was the wrong move either, as 1) he has been on a roll and 2) his stack is much bigger than yours.

I played in a NLHE sit&go tourney yesterday and made it to the final 2, against a player whose stack was almost 2x mine. First HU hand he bets into me for T2500 (Blinds were 200/400 or 300/600). He had been doing this all night and had built up a sizeable stack that way, rarely if ever showing down. I take it for a bluff and go All-In with QTo. He calls and shows 83o. He pairs his 8 on the river and takes down the pot and 1st place. Was he wrong to call? Do you think he cares?

[34TheTruth34]

I agree with Mike. If you're going to take that much offense when people voice their opinions on your play, you should consider posting your hands somewhere else.

I already mentioned that I do not get offended when people comment on my play. If you think I made the wrong play, fine. My point is that he is upset with me for posting a bad beat story, when that's not what I did at all. He then goes on to make all kinds of comments about how I played the hand incorrectly, but everything he says is pretty much wrong. I'm sorry if my response came across as mean-spirited.


I don't think calling was the wrong move either, as 1) he has been on a roll and 2) his stack is much bigger than yours

does the fact that he's been winning a few hands make a difference on whether he should call or not? Personally, I don't think so. If anything, shouldn't he think that we would be more scared of him because he's winning, and therefore I would be more likely to show up with a powerful hand like trip sevens?

As far as the stack thing goes, that is basically what I'm trying to figure out. If it was a good call or not based on stack sizes.

Thanks for the response.

[34TheTruth34]

you said he is "one who doesn't raise" but you "decide that there's no reason to believe that Mr. P. has a king, let alone a seven"

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Mr. P. has played every hand and bet every flop since I arrived at the table. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to assume that he doesn't need a 7 or a king to make a bet here.

And again, I'm not questioning his betting the flop. If the table keeps rolling over for him, he would be stupid NOT to bet the flop. My only point is that when I come over the top with a big reraise, he should probably figure I have a seven or at least a king. Considering that he currently can't beat either, does he have a call or not?

[Mike Haven]

you seem convinced he should not have called, by bringing the mood of the table into your consideration - because you didn't roll over on this occasion he should think you have a 7 or a K

yet you do not appear willing to bring his personality into consideration

if there were different players and different stacks and different personalities involved then it would be easy to say no he shouldn't have called

in the situation as you describe, yes, it was a fair call, for the reasons already given

it was a bummer for you that he made a "mistake" but then caught a card

the point is, will you raise all in next time you are in that exact situation?

("you said he is "one who doesn't raise" but you "decide that there's no reason to believe that Mr. P. has a king, let alone a seven"
I don't understand what you're getting at here. Mr. P. has played every hand and bet every flop since I arrived at the table. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to assume that he doesn't need a 7 or a king to make a bet here."

i meant just because he only bet 600 it doesn't mean he has no 7 or K or AA or whatever - but i take your point - you can cross your fingers and hope he doesn't [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] )

[Sly_Grin]

Actually, I think I was at the table myself - was this on Planet Poker ? He made a terrible call but some players running well and with chips to spare will call anything. Might have also sensed that you were on a bluff as you were short stacked and that's the type of flop that lots of people will take a stab at.

[34TheTruth34]

This was not Planet Poker, but you bring up an interesting point:

Might have also sensed that you were on a bluff as you were short stacked and that's the type of flop that lots of people will take a stab at.

That's definitely true, however, I don't think this particular opponent was this advanced in his thinking. Even if this is true, how does he know he can beat my non-trip sevens hand? I could have AA, a king, QQ, or JJ and still be ahead of him.