Not folding big pots a leak at nanolimits?

Rudi · #1 05-11-2005, 02:04 AM

I just finished a -50BB (260+ hands) session in $0.05/$.10, erasing all of my gains over 500 hands. I think my winrate was 30% tonight and overall it's below 50% at this level.

I'm glad I moved down during my downswing from other microlimits because I'm not sure if it's bad luck or my own play or a combination of both.

Anyway, I do go to showdown when the pot is 8BB or bigger, even though I'm fairly certain I'm beat. SSHE says don't fold for one bet in a big pot. Well, I'm don't, yet I'm bleeding BB's.

In nanolimits, when there is 4 to a straight or flush and a player bets, should I just start automucking top pair, two-pair, trips?

Granted this night was the worst I've ever had in my poker experience and isn't what most of you have seen. It just seems that anytime a hand could beat mine, it did. Ah, well. I'm breakeven on $0.10/$0.50, time to start building it back up again. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

ArturiusX · #2 05-11-2005, 02:05 AM

You should post hands instead of vague descriptions.

Malachii · #3 05-11-2005, 02:08 AM

And try to keep things in a context too. There's a difference between calling with a hand that has a marginal chance of winning and a hand that is obviously beaten.

Rudi · #4 05-11-2005, 09:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You should post hands instead of vague descriptions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I was speaking in generalizations, but here's an example.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Rudi · #5 05-11-2005, 09:39 AM

Ugh, it's bad luck and me. I should've folded that turn when 3-bet. I better bring a calculator to computer BB's on the turn since I thought it was much bigger. Of course, I call the river for one more bet in a big pot when I'm obviously beaten.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (5.20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (11.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB

mvoss · #6 05-11-2005, 09:49 AM

I'd throw both of these hands away after being raised on the turn. IMO you're behind too many hands to continue with your marginal holdings.

I don't know if your raises in both of these hands are to aggressive. The reason I bring this up is because I recognize the tendency to be too aggressive from my own play when on a downswing. In my eagerness of not stopping to be aggressive, because I'm on a downswing, I tend to be overly aggressive.

Fantam · #7 05-11-2005, 09:53 AM

Hello Rudi,

I agree that with your first hand example, that you should fold when raised on the turn.

With the second hand example I would not have raised on the turn. Thats because its just possible that the bettor might have a 4 and have been hoping for a check-raise on the flop. So, I would just have called down to the river as your Q's kicker was quite weak.

To answer your initial question. I would fold when there is 4 to a straight or flush on board and your opponent is betting or raising and the pot is small.

The time to call (possibly to the river) for one more bet is when you have decent hands and the pot is very big.

Thats just a generalisation, which you seemed to be asking for.

Keep posting hands here and I hope your results and luck improves. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

deception5 · #8 05-11-2005, 10:16 AM

Honestly with no reads I don't think calling down here is that bad. Maybe I've been playing too much 6-max but if you fold the turn on these hands for one more bet an aggressive player will constantly make these plays at you.

deception5 · #9 05-11-2005, 11:26 AM

Responded to the hands but wanted to respond to the main post as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Granted this night was the worst I've ever had in my poker experience and isn't what most of you have seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would disagree and say that most have had nights like this. Sometimes it seems like you just get dealt a bunch of great hands and someone _always_ outdraws you or slowplayed preflop on. Or you pump up every flush and straight draw and not one comes in (or when they do someone hits a full house). I know I personally have had a 240BB downswing, 70BB+ in one night. Try to distinguish if you are losing the hands due to bad play or bad luck. When I take a huge loss I recommend:

1.) Cutting down the number of tables you're playing (if you are multi-tabling) to make sure you are focusing enough on the game.

2.) Post hands you felt you could have played better (or random hands to make sure you were playing "standard situations" correctly).

3.) Review other player's posted hands to make sure you would respond correctly in that situation.

4.) Reading through SSH again (and again and again [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ).

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad I moved down during my downswing from other microlimits because I'm not sure if it's bad luck or my own play or a combination of both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moving down is never a bad thing. I have moved down twice (.10/.20 back to .05/.10 and 1/2 back to .50/1.00) when I felt like things weren't working out. You can always move back up when you regain your confidence and bankroll management is critical to success.

[ QUOTE ]
In nanolimits, when there is 4 to a straight or flush and a player bets, should I just start automucking top pair, two-pair, trips?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this is "it depends". Were you betting the whole time and the player woke up when the fourth card hit? Is the pot multi-way or heads up (there is a much higher chance of a bluff heads up here). Did this happen on the turn or the river? If it's the river you only have to be right a small % of the time to call this. If it's the turn and you have a set, you have 10 outs to improve to a full house/quads. Is the player usually passive? etc...

Don't be too results-oriented. If you are playing good poker the results will work themselves out. Just make sure you are playing as well as possible and always looking to improve!

D5

Rudi · #10 05-11-2005, 11:11 PM

Hey D5, thanks for the pep talk and perspective. I'm okay on the bankroll for $0.50/$1.00, $.25/$.50 and $0.10/$0.50. My point for moving down is to improve postflop play and some of the other techniques I've read about on the 2+2'er forum. At least when I'm ready to move back up I'll feel confident about my play and say "thems the breaks" after a losing session.