30/60 against 2+2er

[DcifrThs]

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Isn't anyone folding when it's capped preflop?

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absolutely 100% positively not.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

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This hand looks familiar. You should be overlimping KJs to the UTG limp and fold it to the limp-cap there. Although the UTG+1 tard was giving you pretty good odds to chase once you called the cap. Once you see the flop I'd call down given that you will see QQ some % of the time and have the odds to chase your 5 outs when behind.

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i really disagree with all of this.

you can safely fold the river here. QQ will raise almost every time. KK/AA is much much more likely. also, QQ wont bet the river knowing its getting 1 call atleast.

preflop given the pot odds you MUST call after the utg+1 puts his money in there.

the play here is unequivicolly to call preflop. call the flop and fold the turn imo.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

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What I don't understand is everyone saying you should fold on the river? If you're beat, you were beat on the turn and should probably fold there b/c you're likely drawing to 2 outs and 5 at the most (so avg it as 3).
Folding on the river to me seems silly.

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Hi Toast,

One line of reasoning is that as of the turn, you likely still have outs, and the pot is large enough to justify a chase, especially since you're closing the action. There is also the possibility that UTG is firing away with a PP < K, and may end up checking the river. As of the river, you have more information: Namely, you've essentially missed your draw, the UTG is still firing, and UTG+1 is still calling. I think It's really tough to make an overcall with TP3K here.

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tell me a pocket pair that a very solid/tough UTG player limps in a game w/ the loose UTG+1 there to call his raises cold other than AA/KK...

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

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not suggesting he was doing this, but limp-raising with 77 to make a tight player fold a pretty good hand like KJs would be a pretty sick move

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if they both knew each other and knew that UTG+1 would call with crap OR was weak enough to fold in a big pot then that would be a great play. but if utg+1 is just normal loose and calls and folds with loosie frequency then its not really the best thing to do...


-Barron

[piggity]

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tell me a pocket pair that a very solid/tough UTG player limps in a game w/ the loose UTG+1 there to call his raises cold other than AA/KK...


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Hi Dcifr,

I think a reasonable play for the UTG would have been to cap preflop with, say, QQ-TT in an effort to in fact knock out at least the UTG+1 limper (the least aggressive thus far). Didn't happen, but could have been his plan.

That said, I agree with you that AA/KK is more likely, but I think the non-zero possibilities of the other pairs, coupled with the non-zero possibilities of you having several outs makes for a callable turn.

[geormiet]

I decided I like folding the turn. 12:1, i have anywhere between 0 to 5 outs, and there are 3 hearts on board already.

[kerpowski]

What were you planning to do if button doesn't 3 bet? Same line you took here? I guess I don't see what raising to see if I limp-rr buys you. If you can get in cheap here I think that's best. Once button 3 bets and I limp-cap that should be enough to tell you KJ is in big trouble from at least one of us and you really need to release preflop(UTG+1's limp-call cap doesn't really mean much other than that he has two cards).

[kerpowski]

Not saying I would do this but it would be more of an option if a) the button didn't 3 bet and b) UTG+1 didn't call too much. Given those two things it is very unlikely for UTG to have any 77'ish hand here.

[1800GAMBLER]

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I think a reasonable play for the UTG would have been to cap preflop with, say, QQ-TT in an effort to in fact knock out at least the UTG+1 limper

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Yes, this is a reasonable play if UTG knew utg+1 would limp and then the other player would raise, then he can limp his QQ!

[PairTheBoard]

On Folding the River. Suppose UTG limps with 88,99,TT, maybe even JJ. He caps preflop hoping to thin out UTG+1 and maybe even Hero. He bets out the flop to test the waters. No one raises and the reraiser folds. With no pressure applied back at him he bets the turn. Again, no pressure. What's he thinking now? Maybe UTG+1 caught a pair of 7's? Certainly Hero doesn't have AK or he would have heard from it. Does Hero have a weak King? Does Hero have AQ with A of hearts thinking he might have had 6 outs on the flop and has now picked up the nut flush draw? River card helps nobody. What should he do now? Check or Bet? This could be the perfect Value/Bluff Bet for him! He may get paid off by a worse hand from UTG+1 and knock out a better hand if Hero has a weak King and decides not to overcall. If he checks and Hero bets a King what does he do then? In this position isn't a bet by this Solid player a perfectly reasonable Defensive/Offensive Value/Bluff bet?

PairTheBoard