Just Curious.... About looseness - VPIP (excession... you out there?)

[kurto]

This other post made me think of this:

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Nothing much wrong here either.
With 19% VP$IP (which is pretty tight for these tables) you should perhaps be seeing... EXCESSION

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How is this tight? I don't get this. I've been trying to loosen up my game. I play full ring NL at Party Poker ($25 and $50). On a 'crazy day' I might hit %20.

In late position if its limped or there's a small raise and a few callers, I will play:
any pocket pair, any suited connectors (except perhaps 2-3 and 3-4), Axs, sometimes Kxs, Any Ace broadway, and KQ, KJ and maybe K10s... occasionally unsuited 1 gappers.

From MP... I will sometimes play suited connectors, ANY pocket pair, AK-AQ and usually 10J. Occasionally A10s, AJs and KJs...

From EP, I play any pocket pair, and AK.

From the blinds... I will complete with most of the above if It hasn't been raised.

Yet... with all of the above, my VPIP seems to hover around 15-18%. I think it hit 20% once and I was shocked.

Note: For a lot of the above, if there's significant raising before it gets to me, I call with less. For instance, If a tight player raises 6xbb from UTG+2... I fold my A9 suited that I might have limped.

How the heck do people (full ring) get their VPIP above 20% without playing hands that are just terrible?

[xorbie]

I'm basically just like you, but I think just looser in EP and MP. I can't imagine not playing AQ in EP.. I've begun limping it from UTG/UTG+1 but I still open raise from UTG+2 and I can't imagine just folding. I also limp AJ from UTG, and limp KQs as well.

In MP I will play ATs always, will raise AJs+, will limp KQ/AJ/SC/KJs/QTs.

In LP I will limp 79s+, 78o+ and then everything else you have.

[excession]

On Party $50 tables there are so many players who have no clue how to play past the flop that the ideal Vp$iP for a good player is 25%+ - playing about half $50 and half $100 tables at UB and Party, my Vp$iP over last 14k hands is 28%, my PFR 9% and my PTBB/100 is over 12..

My recent anaylsis of 120,000 hands at Party $50's shows that sLA's win more than TA's (30-50% more on average) (of course TA's are able to play more tables). This makes sense - a lot more than the top 22% of hands are +EV if played right vs the players you find at the Party $50's..

Of course to get away with Vp$iP of 30 and PFR 10 you need to be aggressive post-flop and have really good reads (where GT+ really comes into its own) but I've had great fun and solid success with a relatively LAGgy style over the past few months..

I play 5-12 hrs/week and haven't had a losing week since mid..November

That said TA is the safe way to learn for sure and likely to be the way to go once you meet better players (unless you really are very good at reads and post-flop)

[MikeL]

xorbie,

We play very similar starting hands. The major exception is:

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In MP I will play ATs always, will raise AJs+, will limp KQ/AJ/SC/KJs/QTs.

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I will play KJs like KQs, in any position for a limp. The rest of the above hands I don't play outside of LP. I think this must contribute alot to raising your VP$IP considerably.

I wrote a starting hands guide for 10 player not long ago. It would be described as Tight/Weak, I think. But it should keep NL rookies out of alot of pre-flop mistakes. Now that my post-flop game is getting better, I am thinking about doing a starting hand guided for transitioning from Tight/Weak to Loose/Aggressive. Here is the final version of my guide:

SSNL Starting Hands for 10 Player Max - First Major Revision

Regards,
Mike L.

[MasterShakes]

This is what confuses me. I read about this same topic in this same forum less than a week ago. A couple posters that I thought were pretty reputable advocated general preflop play that was very tight, given what I'm reading in this thread. I think they were advocating less than 15 VPIP. I can dig up a link if requested. Nobody said anything to contradict them. I'm far from a regular in this forum, so I didn't see fit to argue with the consensus in that thread.

Given my limited experience (less than 20K hands between NL25 and 50 at full ring Party since they changed the structure), excession is right. The looser players who play well after the flop get the money better than the nut peddlers.

When I have late position, especially the button, and I'm up against several limpers (3 or more), which is common in these games, I found myself wanting to loosen up even more than what is advocating. I'm not saying I'd play any two all the time, but once I had that position, I found that I was picking up so many pots without a contest after making a good read that it might have made sense to play any two with position against several limpers.

Also, playing more hands is fun.

[MikeL]

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The looser players who play well after the flop get the money better than the nut peddlers.

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I think this is the key. As your post-flop play improves, you can loosen up pre-flop because you know you can beat your opponents post-flop. If you have not developed enough in your post-flop game, a tight/weak strategy is needed to keep the chip spewing to a minimum until you can figure out the post-flop game.

That is why the normal progression of a NL player seems to be:

1) Loose/Passive (fish)
2) Tight/Passive (rock)
3) Tight/Aggressive (solid)
4) Loose/Aggressive (controlled maniac)

You get the idea.

Mike L.