AJo I always bet overs

[w_alloy]

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Maybe somebody else can explain the whole keep pots small so people chase with bad odds...

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This is a good part of what the oft referred to page 157 is about. It does apply to preflop, the example is obviously meant to illustrate a general point (its from razz anyway... not sure why you dont think this applies preflop really).

I think maybe you understand this point but you just dont ever think it could be significant enough to move the call ev higher than the raise ev in certain special specific games?

A good question then for you would be: Do you think this concept could increase the ev of just calling if only by a very small amount (again only in certain games)?

[RiverTheNuts]

I understand this reasoning, but honestly, a person who cold calls a raise in UTG+1 isnt gonna care that he's only getting 5:1 when he needs 6:1 to chase, he'll say "screw it, close enough" .. if you have the best hand, bet it. This keep the pot small concept becomes more meaningful with multiple people in a hand and waiting to the turn to make your move (aka, smoothcalling the flop so that you can raise the turn and make it two cold to all behind you, with them having to worry about getting 3-bet)

PS- I fold AJo UTG at a 9+ table unless its a weekend and people are playing like loons)

[w_alloy]

Assuming you could agree at least at some level with the last 2 statements I made above, I just thought of a way i might be able to convince you that you might be wrong about the effect this concept can have on real EV preflop.

Raising preflop makes loose opponents generally less correct before the flop but more correct after the flop. Calling does the opposite (see 2nd paragraph for more on this). If enough of our opponents are loose, the EV (here using a narrow but common immediate definition of EV) we lose when we dont raise can be made up later by the mistakes of our opponents. Remember the amount we add to EV is our pot equity times the number of players times the size of the bet. If our pot equity is relatively high, this can be very hard to make up. Hence, only hands with much lower average pot equity, but still positive, can be effected by this rule. AJ and AQ in multyway pots are the two most common examples of this.

It is a fact that preflop mistakes are not usually as costly as post-flop mistakes. For proof of this, see Ed Miller's excellent post about big leaks and little leaks. To sum it up, and you'll see where I'm going with this after a sec, calling an UTG raise with A6o in the CO isnt that big of a mistake. You can easily make up for almost any poor pre-flop decision with good play after. Calling (with the same A6o) after the flop comes 6 J T and there's tons of action and no pot odds is a huge mistake. Similiarly, calling the whole way when an ace hits and UTG is jamming the pot and the pot is small is also a big mistake, in terms of EV. The larger the pot the less of a mistake this becomes, untill it becomes correct.

[brettbrettr]

I'd bet the flop.

[RiverTheNuts]

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Raising preflop makes loose opponents generally less correct before the flop but more correct after the flop. Calling does the opposite (see 2nd paragraph for more on this). If enough of our opponents are loose, the EV (here using a narrow but common immediate definition of EV) we lose when we dont raise can be made up later by the mistakes of our opponents.

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This hit home, ty... limp and then let them donk around calling down with 3rd pair when we hit top pair, I see what you were saying, and I think this correlates somewhat to my gameplan, since 2/4 players are so bad at playing postflop (its also why my VPIP is so retarded-high [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ...

[w_alloy]

Ya I think I finally nailed it too, after all that fishing around [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

On another note, actually on topic for the main thread, I'd raise preflop and bet the flop.

[tpir90036]

It makes me sad to see so many people arguing about pre-flop when a) you didn't even ask about it and b) it's not that interesting.

Anyway, I would definitely fire at this flop. Since you didn't, firing the turn is not totally horrible as a semi-bluff since you picked up a double gutter and your Ace still might be worthy of outs.

If you were in position you might check the turn with the outs you picked up if you bet the flop and were called....but I think you played the hand fine. There is nothing wrong with checking your overs once in a while. But I probably would have bet them here.

[flair1239]

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Name a reason why you wouldn't raise with an equity edge.

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When you have a reasonable expectation of a significantly larger edge later in the hand.

[alul]

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Name a reason why you wouldn't raise with an equity edge.

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I don't really see a big equity edge with AJo UTG. You don't know anything about other players holdings. But anyway, I usually raise with it in tight games, it sometimes allows to steal the blinds. I usually limp in very aggressive games, when almost every hand is raised and reraised. I don't remember me folding it though.