Alright, I'm posting all my AK hands, I'm even going to make some up!

[ArturiusX]

Raise the flop? Why would we do that? Because aggression = good, passive = bad? Because thats the only reasoning you put forward.

I play it the same, fold the turn.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop? Why would we do that? Because aggression = good, passive = bad? Because thats the only reasoning you put forward.

I play it the same, fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
why are we cold calling 2 on the flop? getting 5:1 and ~4 outs at best? i suck at hands like these with UI Overcards [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] i'm not raising, but i'm trying to understand calling too.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
why are we cold calling 2 on the flop? getting 5:1

[/ QUOTE ]


?????

[Nak]

[ QUOTE ]

why are we cold calling 2 on the flop? getting 5:1 and ~4 outs at best? i suck at hands like these with UI Overcards [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] i'm not raising, but i'm trying to understand calling too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just called one bet on the flop and then called the raise, too. I would not cold-call two bets.

Nak

[jrz1972]

The flop is the most interesting street here IMO. I could see a case for each action:

Raise: The case here is that you might buy the button and/or a free card. If I had the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I would probably lean in this direction, although even then it's read-depdent on the other players, especially SB. On this particular flop, though, I'm not going to bother trying for a free card when my draw is so weak.

Call. Yes, my draw is weak, but surely not so weak to fold when it's 12:1 to me.

Fold. Okay, I don't understand the argument for folding the flop getting 12:1. Of course, if I had the gift of prophesy and knew MP3 was about to raise this, I would fold, but I don't see any particular reason to anticipate a raise. Granted, your overcards are pretty weak, there's a possible flush draw out, and your A outs are subject to reverse domination, but even if you value your overs at ~3 outs, you're getting reasonable odds to take one off. You only need to make up one BB or so if you hit to justify a call here.

All things considered, I call both the bet and raise on the flop.

When SB pulls a sng, the turn is an easy fold.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why are we cold calling 2 on the flop? getting 5:1

[/ QUOTE ]


?????

[/ QUOTE ]

oop, i missed him call the 1st bet. sorry. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[davelin]

Geez people, the flop is fine. Peeling one here is fine, that sucks that it got raised behind you but I wouldn't advocate raising here.

I may fold the turn. You need about 4 outs to make this call in the first place plus the fact there's a raiser behind you.

Good overcall on the river.

[Buckmulligan]

Nice hand. The turn fold isn't quite as clear cut as many are making it out to be. Also, anyone advocating a flop fold is out of their mind, getting 11:1 on the first call and 14:1 on the second.

[moot]

Yeah, the flop is fine. Some blinds will bet out with all sorts of crazy holdings and you're being laid pretty decent odds.

The turn call is very bad, though. After MP3's flop raise and SB's call and his bet-out you have few outs at best, if you're not already drawing dead. What's worse, this stop and go action could be very bad. You'll often see this when the blind bets out the flop with a weak pair and then 2 pairs on the turn. MOST IMPORTANTLY, you are stuck in the middle between two players who like their hands. If you you were closing the action you might be able to call. The risk of it getting raised behind you along with the fact that your hand is probably worth 3-4 outs at best is too great. FOLD.

The river play is okay after making the turn call, though. The pots very big at this point and you wouldn't mind the overcall since it looks like many times your ahead of the MP3 but behind the SB.

The one problem is... the MP3 played this exactly like a flush draw, so it'd be bad news if it gets raised behind you (at which point you honestly might consider letting the hand go, though you'd probably have to call given your odds) (it's close).

[tijean]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone advocating a flop fold is out of their mind

[/ QUOTE ]

As I think I'm the only one to actively advocate folding this flop, I'll take that as a challenge.

If this flop is checked to me, I'm probably betting. It's marginal, but there's a chance I'm ahead here, and if I'm playing this, I'm playing from the lead.

Once SB bets out though, I'm no longer leading, so I have to ask myself two questions:

1) Do I have the equity to take the lead back with a raise? Obviously, no. I think we can all agree on that.

2) Do I have the odds to draw behind? Well, let's see...

We're getting 12-1 on the first call. We have two overcards with no backdoor draws - three outs max. With three outs, we need 15-1 to make a straight call. If we assume the player behind us will come along, we're getting 13-1, which gets us closer but still not there.

Now, if we had a reads that SB was somewhat aggressive postflop, and might bet out with a wide range of hands putting us on overcards; and that MP3 was loose and passive and likely to call behind with any crap; then a loose call might be in order here.

But we don't have reads. We don't have odds. There are draws on the board that don't help us. And we're stuck in the middle and can't raise to buy a better position. Everything about this flop call is marginal or worse. And poker is about exploiting small advantages, not exacerbating small disadvantages.

I fold the flop. (And after thinking about it, I'd check it through if checked to me, as well.)