Two unusual hands

sweetjazz · #1 05-10-2005, 02:15 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (19 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero folds, SB calls (all-in).

Final Pot: 19 BB

My read on UTG is that he is loose passive, based on 65 hands in my database. He has just sat down tonight, so I don't have any other basis for my read besides the stats, though he's played over 50% of his hands preflop in his first orbit.

I thought the turn bet was likely a straight, but I figured the chance he had two pair or was donkbetting made a raise correct. When he 3-bets the turn, I planned on calling a bet on the river UI, even though I strongly suspected I was beat.

SB's river bet is a donkbet -- he's already made a few in the ~15 hands I've been at the table. But UTG's raise increased the likelihood he had a straight and cut my odds in half. Is folding this easy here? I tend to call very loosely on the river in big pots, but I thought this was a clear fold here. Also, calling one is often right because people will donkbet, but donkraising is much less common, so the only concern is whether the raiser could have a hand that is weaker than mine but that he thinks is really strong. I just don't see that here.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, MP (poster) raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO folds, Hero raises, MP calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP 3-bets, Hero caps, MP calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

Preflop call OK here? I've been noticing that when I check-raise the flop with a strong draw out of position in a multiway pot and then check the turn when a blank hits, the initial flop bettor often picks up where he left off and bets again. I thought this flop was an interesting one to try to induce that sequence, given that the pot is small and my hand is pretty strong (but not so much of a monster that I will regret missing a chance to go to war on all streets). Is capping the turn too much? I figured that he's 3-betting here with AA, KK, AQ, KQ, QJ, etc. and that the only reasonable hands I am trailing are QQ (unlikely with 2 Qs out already) and turned 88.

I'd really appreciate comments on these hands, as these two lines are not very common for me. I am particularly curious about the second hand, which I think is a nice one against extremely LAGgy players, especially those who bloat the pot so much that they feel that they are "sucked in" to calling it down when they start to suspect they are beat.

irishpint · #2 05-10-2005, 02:27 AM

hand 1-why fold?! you put someone one 58? i'd call it down with a set to see that.

hand 2- fine

TheDelChop · #3 05-10-2005, 02:33 AM

You can't fold in the first hand. Your are good way too often. You only can't beat a straight and the range of hands for the hero is much more broad than the only two cards that make this straight. I think the villian most likely flopped a set and you can beat any two pair and any set except KKK on the end. You must call.

ThePimpulator · #4 05-10-2005, 02:41 AM

Hand 1: No way can I fold that getting 9.5 to 1. You dont think he can have 77, 66, 2pair, or just be going crazy, one in ten and a half times?

Hand 2: I fold preflop but once in, and I hit that flop, I get as much money in as I can.

ode · #5 05-10-2005, 04:10 AM

There's no way I'd fold in hand 1 on the river, unless I was tilting bad.

/ode

w_alloy · #6 05-10-2005, 04:44 AM

1st hand i thought was a joke when reading at first, had to read the responses to make sure it wasnt.

2nd hand i complete depending on other players in the hand. 6 handed with 2 others usually I do, but I advocate looser blind play than most here. That check raising to induce a three bet is interesting, you dont see too many good players do it (at least at 2/4) that often (which doesnt necessarily mean it's bad). It obviously worked here, but i think I'll stick to leading out most of the time after I check raise. I like it as a variation play though in certain situations, especially against agressive and/or stubborn opponents. I think hand 2 was well played.

An interesting problem is though, with this turn play, without a good read on your opponent, its hard to tell if the turn 3 bet is stubborness after you check raise (your play worked) or if they really have a monster. You could lose a lot of bets against good players who have sets and call your flop check raise for deception. These same players are unlikely to three-bet you with anything but a great hand, which in this case you may or may not beat.

brazilio · #7 05-10-2005, 05:28 AM

Who took one of jason_t's hand histories, I know this is a joke.

sweetjazz · #8 05-10-2005, 11:52 AM

Thanks for the replies. Hand 1 was not a joke, but looking back, yeah it's not a good fold. Villain was very passive so I think he has to have a strong hand here, but I agree that I can't put him on a straight with > 90% certainty. Fortunately, this time, he did have T8, for the flopped straight, but I still agree the fold is bad. Even though the villain is very loose passive, I agree that more than 10% of the time he will be betting this way with a hand that I beat. I don't know if he 3-bets the turn with two pair, but I can see him doing it with a set.

So this is a clear river call. Suppose my hand were AA instead of 99. Preflop and flop play will be the same, and I think raising the turn is still correct. When I am 3-bet on the turn, then I have an easy river fold UI, right? It's the range of two-pair and set hands that he can have which makes folding 99 bad (really bad), but makes AA folding right (against this particular passive opponent), right?

The second hand, I think this is a good play against an aggressive player (here, I am reduced to making the play based on the likelihood of villain being aggresive). The hand is pretty strong and the board is not scary at all. Thus, you're less likely to be up against a monster and villain may be more likely to think you're stealing. Also, since this is my first hand at the table, it's likely that villain thinks I'm a complete donk when I check-raise the second time. Amazingly, villain shows KJo (WTF?), and MHISVG (my hand is so very good).