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#21
05-09-2005, 04:43 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In many ways, love is an uncontrolled physiological response to another human, whereas faith is a voluntary shutting down of mans rational faculty. [/ QUOTE ] I have faith that God is in control because of evidence. I have faith in God because for my whole life He has never proved himself unfaithful to me. I have faith in God because I have evidence of His faithfulness in Scripture. [/ QUOTE ] Although I'm sure these words have meaning to you, it reads like nonsense. What evidence is there that god is in control? Also, stating that you have faith in god because you have evidence of his faithfulness in a book shows you are not using your "god given" faculties of reason and logic. Millions of kids have faith that santa claus is real, and they also have evidence of that faith in stories from their parents and in books about the jolly fat man, yet they are clearly being deluded. Please acknowledge that you have just as much reason to believe in your god as these kids have to believe in santa. 
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#22
05-09-2005, 05:05 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
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Although I'm sure these words have meaning to you [/ QUOTE ] They do. [ QUOTE ] it reads like nonsense. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure that it does. [ QUOTE ] What evidence is there that god is in control? Also, stating that you have faith in god because you have evidence of his faithfulness in a book shows you are not using your "god given" faculties of reason and logic. [/ QUOTE ] To me, the Bible is a history book that was inspired by God Himself. So the stories and the sermons in the Bible show me of God faithfulness to His people. So If I believe the Bible is true and it states that God is unchanging then I can rationally believe that if God was faithful in Genesis, and every book of the Bible then He will continue to be faithful to me as His adopted son. I could give you examples from my own life, but I doubt that they would be meaningful to you. I just start with the presupposition that God exists because I believe that He has made Himself known to me. So with that in mind I interpret the world through my experiances based on my knowledge of God from the Bible and my personal experiance with Him. I completely understand your disbelief on how a rational person could come to this conclusion. Again, it is another reason why I believe in the existance of God and the work of His Son. To you, it is possibly something to pity or revile. [ QUOTE ] Millions of kids have faith that santa claus is real, and they also have evidence of that faith in stories from their parents and in books about the jolly fat man, yet they are clearly being deluded. Please acknowledge that you have just as much reason to believe in your god as these kids have to believe in santa. [/ QUOTE ] If you read my post in the other thread, I state that to the outside observer, I can not presume to look any different to you than a kid who believes in Santa Claus unless you believe like I do that I am a sinner and God is just and holy and the only way for me to be reconciled to Him was by the sacrifice of His Son. I see evidence all around me that fact that I live and move and that anything exists is because of God because I start with that assumption. It makes rational sense to me. -Gryph
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#23
05-09-2005, 05:25 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
in the same argument you say that these religions, which by their own doctrines are not based in logic, must provide evidence such that a person can use logic to derive their own belief in order to be legitimate. this means your argument is salient only to someone with the prerequisite that they are not a believer. in other words, your argument holds so long as the person to whom you posit it believes the same things you do.
you're basically preaching to the choir. as an episcopalian i can say that i certainly hope you aren't directly referencing my faith. of the chirstian denominations, we have always been the most inclusive and pride ourselves on welcoming any and all, regardless of their personal choices, past actions, or personal views on faith. fim
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#24
05-09-2005, 07:33 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
A strict adherence to any system can produce fanatics. It is easy to see that Man and his knowledge have changed since the historical times when the religious texts were created. To evolve ourselves without changing our religious understanding is poor indeed. Following along with certain ideas to the exclusion of others can bring a rigidity to the mind, and flexibility suffers. The mind becomes no longer open to new ideas, options disappear, personal creativity stagnates. Intelligence may still be present, but the ability to adapt to various situations and to face them disappears. An individual cannot relate to the world in a practical manner, when insisting that some ideas are real and that some are invalid. An extreme example, to be sure, but in varying degrees such circumstances are experienced.
Ideas change, and evolve. Religious ideas should have also evolved, but as their "Truths" are supposedly unchangeable, we should not be surprised to find some people holding-on to 2000-year-old (and older) ideas and symbology. As a recovering Christian, I can say that to break free from childhood ideas is very difficult indeed. The mind doesn't release its firm hold on personal beliefs easily, it takes much work. But knowing that a belief is just an idea that was accepted and repeated and given life, so to speak, by the imagination, makes it easier to change. Some people will never do that kind of work, and will remain where there are. But all that was just an idea, just a thought. It is mine, and it works for me. We do have freedom of thought. Now, to see it in others.......
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#29
05-09-2005, 10:55 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
Me? When I die, it's "Lights on!"
To speak with many symbolic references, it is as if in life, using only one specific beam of consciousness like a light, say, a flashlight, to perceive one room of reality, when in an after-death environment, the entire room is visible. Then, of course after learning to manipulate or act within that room, within that reality, the adventure of consciousness occurs outdoors, so to speak, outside of that reality. The idea can keep growing, obviously, as an analogy. You certainly don't think there is a final resting place where communion with a buddha or singing lovely songs to a god-being is going to carry on through an infinite existence, do you? Those types of experiences are possible, depending on what a person believes, but any continued or sustained event is bound to become stagnate, or boring, or unfulfilling after awhile. There will always be more to learn, more to do, more to act upon and create. There can be no end to the possibilities. I find it odd that people report different events after having a near-death experience. Some see a tunnel, some see a light, some see their relatives, some see nothing whatsoever. A friend of mine who was clinically dead for nine minutes saw nothing at all. When I asked him, kindly now, what did he think or believe was going to happen when he does die, he said he believed nothing, nothing at all. Maybe someone should study the beliefs of those who have near-deaths, and accumulate some data. Perhaps the data would show that their experience follows their beliefs. (By the way, I did tell my friend that eventually some kind ol' soul would come around to wake him from that experience. There will always be teachers and others who will help, just as there are in life.)
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#30
05-10-2005, 09:42 AM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
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I find it odd that people report different events after having a near-death experience. Some see a tunnel, some see a light, some see their relatives, some see nothing whatsoever. A friend of mine who was clinically dead for nine minutes saw nothing at all. When I asked him, kindly now, what did he think or believe was going to happen when he does die, he said he believed nothing, nothing at all. Maybe someone should study the beliefs of those who have near-deaths, and accumulate some data. Perhaps the data would show that their experience follows their beliefs. [/ QUOTE ] Or perhaps their beliefs follow their experience...I had 2 NDE's and each time saw nothing. I was too young both times to have been influenced by other's views.
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