Rule Ethics Question

[barry.egan]

I'm a lurker here and am mainly a limit player who dabbles in NL, but this is a question for everyone. Sorry if all the detail is too much but I think it's important given the situation.

It's a 2/5NL (200min./No Cap buy-in) It's mostly HS/college kids (so everyone's buying in for 300 or 400) with little or no casino experience, so the only knowledgeable players are myself and a house man who's propping.

Villain 1 is loose-aggro and is pretty short ($145). Villain 2 is loose passive PF and loose-aggro ATF and has me covered. I have $371.

I'm dealt QhQd in utg+2.
UTG (Villain 2) limps, 1 fold, I raise to 30, 4 folds, action comes to the sb(Villain 1) and here is where the dilemma begins...

SB thinks a second and then asks what I have. I shrug, and he says he might have to call. Now I'm not usually a coffee-houser, but with an exploitable player I can be. I tell him that he should just go all in. ENTER THE LIMPER. "You call, I call!" Now this is something completely different than my verbal action, and is technically cheating, but I'm pretty sure I want the calls so I don't say anything at all. SB says "I might as well push," and cuts his entire stack into the pot. BB folds and limper announces "I call," whereupon I immediately move all in. Now the limper looks up and seems not to have realized that the sb had moved all in for 170 and says that she wasn't calling that. But based on the fact that I have already acted after her and that sb semi-announced his all-in the dealer first and then I almost on top of him announce that she has to call the sb's raise. Lots of back and forth, lots of "this is some shady sh!t", and finally the house man says that he will allow her to fold to the all-in but she must put the original $25 raise in the pot, I don't protest. With the option to do this or call the all-in, she reluctantly CALLS THE ALL-IN(???). And I again immediately push. She acts surprised, hems & haws, and then very aggressively calls and turns over JTo. I say "Nice call." and table my hand.

Now, my question is just about the ethics of the situation and how others feel about each party's actions. I personally feel as though I did not push any real angles and that the real problem the SB not following the action. But, the SB did not see it in the same way and said that I would only push for the correct ruling if I had the hand that I did and would not have spoken up had I been holding a weaker hand. I know the ruling I asked for was correct under the circumstances, but given that it took place in a local Baltimore B&M card room I did not dispute the compromise. I feel as though I acted correctly and would simply like other's opinions. Thanks for reading all the way down if you got here.

Just for the sake of the game here's how the hand played out...

Pre-flop: Villain 2 limps utg, 1 fold, Hero raises to 30, 4 folds, Villain 1 raises to 145(all-in), Villain 2 calls, Hero raises to 371(all-in), Villain 2 calls.

Flop ($887):
J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Turn ($887):
3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

River ($887):
8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Final Board ($887)
J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] One pair, Queens
Villain 1: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] One pair, Jacks
Villain 2: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] One pair, Jacks

Hero wins $887 with one pair queens

[MLerra]

Honestly, the SB can say whatever she wants about you not doing the same thing with an inferior hand. That's completely irrelevant for two reasons: (a) her assertion is just a baseless assumption, spoken in haste because she's pissed, and (b) if you're a reasonable player and had an all-in in front of you, as well as either a $30 call or an all-in call as well, and you had a weaker hand, you'd be the hell out of this hand anyways.

Verbal declarations are binding in every casino I've been in, it's written on the freaking wall at Foxwoods and I believe at Excalibur too. Personally, I would have raised hell after someone said "I call", then I made my action, and then the person before me tried to uncall. Within the first half hour in my first time playing poker in Excalibur, I got [censored] for making a string bet (I even said "raise", but did it in too timid/quiet a manner to be heard by the dealer sitting next to me, apparently). This was at EXCALIBUR. I got pissed, but what the hell, rules are rules.

[youtalkfunny]

If you're going to lobby him to push all-in, you can't get sore at another player lobbying for him to call.

I wouldn't think of engaging in any such chatter in a multi-way pot.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]

I tell him that he should just go all in.
ENTER THE LIMPER.
"You call, I call!"
Now this is something completely different than my verbal action, and is technically cheating,

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you do engage in table BS, it is OK. If someone else does it, it is cheating? Interesting.