The Maniac, FROI, and being the 'other guy'. A story. (long)

[Bob T.]

There are several poker related topics here, but they were all related and they all came together in one session, so I am going to post the whole thing as a story, rather than as a bunch of seperate hands. Actually there won't even be an individual hand in this post, so if that is what you are looking for, you had best look elsewhere.

A couple of months ago, I played a 6-12 session with vehn, and he ran up a little over a 50 big bet win in 3 hours or so. I went and looked at my records, and I saw that it had been almost two years since I had won 50 big bets in a session. I know that that is due to my own makeup, because when I have a good win in hand, sometimes I start to play to protect that win, instead of trying to get more. If I find that I have a hand that I think under ordinary circumstances, I would have raised, and because I am ahead, I decide to call or muck, then I rack, stack, and head for the door. I know that I won't win much more playing that way.

So anyways, I am flipping through online sites, looking for a game, and there is 10 seated 5-10 game with 6 players in it, that has 40% seeing the flop, and an average pot of about $120. That is a little odd, actually a lot odd, so I decide to investigate. I go to the table, and watch the first two hands, and the same player open raises on both, and wins both without a showdown, so I suspect that he might be the reason that the statistics are out of line, and I grab the seat to his left. If he is the reason the table has unusual statistics, I will get the First Right Of Isolation, (FROI), so I can play a lot of hands headsup, with the maniac, if the whole table doesn't get out of line (which sometimes happens when their is a maniac on the loose)

As I sit down, he has about $500, and while I wait for the blinds to come around, he raises and reraises preflop every hand. After the flop, he puts in a lot of action, and nearly always makes the last bet on each round, unless someone else caps the betting. I get buckled in for a wild ride.

The first thing that I notice, is that even though this player seems to be seeing every flop, and playing them all the same way, he is still winning a lot of pots with a bet on the river. My experience is that when players play this way, for the most part, you have to enter pots with hands that if you had to, you might win unimproved on the river, or at least have a very good chance of improving.

My plan here, is to play hands with Aces, Pairs, and at least two big cards. Because most of these hands are going to be played headsup, I don't really care for suited or connected cards, because if I don't improve, it will be expensive, and I won't have much to showdown. Whenever I enter the pot, it will be with a three bet to isolate, and I plan on showing down as long as I am not playing the board at the end.

I play for about a half an hour, and I have won some nice pots, and also lost some nice pots, but I am ahead a little over $200. I play a hand in my ahead/passive mode, and then instead of logging out, I decide that this is really too good of an opportunity to leave, and make a resolution to keep playing, and to PLAY, damnit, not to protect my stack of chips.

Every time you get involved in a hand, you will pretty much win or lose 50-100 dollars, depending on how many raises you put in. The maniac shows down some truly awful stuff at the river (like 7 high unimproved), but it seems like the other players still aren't really adjusting, he still wins a lot of pots at the river without a showdown.

This game goes on for a while, it fills up, and it emptys out, and gets full again.

The player to the maniacs right, is getting killed, he has gone through about $300 and is begging to be allowed to win at least one hand. This player I think has the worst seat in the house, if they raise, the maniac raises, and then someone else fourbets, they have to decide whether or not to invest a lot to see the river, because anyone with a fourbet hand is going to make the flop expensive also. The player also is going to have to act before the maniac every time, and the maniac can make adjustments based on their action, although I am not sure if he did.

After about two hours, the maniac is down to about $100, and he starts to slow down. A couple of times, he even checks the flop to me, and folds for one flop bet. I think, Wow, R-E-S-P-E-C-T, but because he was so far out of line before, I think that the game was better when he was betting and raising all the time. Anyway, even though he is folding on the flop sometimes now, and the game has gotten a little more normal, nobody seems to be adjusting to this either, and entering more pots, because each pot isn't going to be as dangerous. I get to be the maniac for a while, and run over the game a little and win several small pots. Then the maniac gets on a run, and rebuilds his bankroll, so it is game on again.

After about another half hour, the maniac is down to about $100 again, and this time he logs off. Game over. You know how some days, some maniac or idiot, wins a bunch of your money, and then before you have a chance to win it back, blows it all off to some other guy? I played for two and a half hours here, and the maniac lost about $400. But, during that same period, I won a little over $800, for one day, I got to be the other guy, and I finally posted a 50BB win. Hope you all get to experience this day someday.

[DaNoob]

Bob,

Thanks for the story. I too hope to be that guy some day. The question I have for you is this: Same situation, playing the way you were playing, how do you approach a KJx or QTx flop when you're holding Ax against the maniac. You know he's going to raise/re-raise regardless, making it very difficult to get a read on his hand, but you are only sitting on A-high going into the turn. And, what if the turn and river are rags as well? In other words, when do you finally pack up and fold to the maniac, even though there's probably a 50/50 chance that he doesn't have squat in his hand? And, in the meantime, do you raise/call his bets?

I've encountered these players before, on tables where everyone else continues to play tight, and have tried to isolate. Unfortunately, it seems like every time I call him down to the river he ends up with a better hand, and when I don't, I get the feeling that he was bluffing. What's the best approach for this?

[Bob T.]

Same situation, playing the way you were playing, how do you approach a KJx or QTx flop when you're holding Ax against the maniac. You know he's going to raise/re-raise regardless, making it very difficult to get a read on his hand, but you are only sitting on A-high going into the turn. And, what if the turn and river are rags as well? In other words, when do you finally pack up and fold to the maniac, even though there's probably a 50/50 chance that he doesn't have squat in his hand? And, in the meantime, do you raise/call his bets?


For the most part, early on, this guy just played raise or fold poker, and his fold button didn't seem to be working. When you run into these players, they seem to like playing with people who give them a little action, and gamble a little. I think that in order to keep them happy, and to get a chance to play, you have to play a little bit with them.

The play went like this, he raised, I three bet, and he capped it. Remember, I am only playing hands that at least might have a little showdown value unimproved.

Flop.

He bets, I raise, he three bets, I call.

Now there is seven big bets in the pot. I have Ace or King high at least, and I know that he isn't going to vary his play. The pot is laying me 9 to 2 to call on the turn and river. What would you do? If I call down now, how big of a mistake will I be making? If it is 50-50 he doesn't have squat, I am making a ton of theorhetical money. Can you see why I think a hand like JT suited would be a huge mistake under these circumstances? And why, I think that players folding the river have made a mistake?

If I have improved, or I had a big pair, I would put in extra action on the turn or river, and maybe collect a couple of extra big bets there. So then the pot would be laying me 11 to 3 or 13 to 5 when I liked my hand.

The important thing I think is your mindset, when you put the first money in preflop, I am thinking that I am really putting in 5 and 1/2 big bets, and I am going to see the river. If I like my hand after that, maybe I'll put in a little more.

The thing is, you will experience a huge amount of volatility with these guys. If they win three in a row, you've lost 20 Big bets, and it seems to cripple you. It happens, but you have a chance to get it back too. I just try and remember to try and get into situations where I am likely the favorite early on, and then not get too smart after that, but just be tenacious.

As a side note, it seems that most often when I see these guys, they are on 5-10 tables. Anyone else experience that?

[Casey]

Bob,

I have a few days like that. In fact, one Friday in February at the CP 4-8 game, I won 100 big bets in five hours. A couple of angels chasing every pot to the river no matter how bad their hands were or how many bets they would have to contribute. Surprisingly, everyone else at the table was playing surprisingly tight. I was getting involved with just about anything down to j-9.

It is a good feeling. BTW I played against you for the first tiome Monday but did,nt get a chance to introduce mtself even though I was sitting right next to you for a while. It was in the game that broke soon after you sat down. I was the guy that you check-raised on the river with your pocket kings after I had been betting my kings from the flop. I wanted to say hello but did not want everyone at the table to hear us talking about 2+2 and all.

[travisand]

I have seen a couple of them at the $20-$40 tables (I was just watching of course). I have witnessed maniacs at those hight limits blow over $6000 in a matter of a couple of hours. Not that this makes any difference to me, I would have to mortgage my house to get into that game.

[Bob T.]

Hi Casey,

Say hi next time, I try not to talk theory at the table so that't ok.

[DaNoob]

I think I get the gist of it now. So, in cases where your Ax went unimproved, you would still call to showdown heads-up against this guy in most cases (assuming you're not playing the board)?

[Bob T.]

Right, but if you are playing the board with A-high, there is a made hand out there, and you call anyway.

[DaNoob]

One last question: I stumble upon the same table where you are taking this guy to town. Does it make sense for me to:
1) Use the same approach we just discussed(I'm guessing not)
2) Play tighter than normal and reap the benefits when I do have a good hand
3) Leave the table in hopes of greener (or less expensive) pastures?

In case I haven't said it, you're the man. Thanks for the tips.

[Vehn]

Well its nice that I inspired you (sorta) but to be honest I have the exact same problem. I tend to leave too fast when I'm winning and leave too late when I'm losing. In my 1.5 years of playing poker I've only had wins of 50 bb twice as far as I know, both of them in 3 hour sessions, as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure that I have never posted a good win when I've played 5 or more hours in a session. At this point I just sort of think its a character flaw and I deal with it - I get antsy after playing for 4 or 5 hours, regardless of how good the game is and how I'm doing, thats just the way it is. Maybe its a form of built-in tilt protection, or my brain just telling me my game is going to start slipping - but thats how it is for me and I just deal with it.

Tuesday night I'm sitting there in the must move $15/$30 at 10pm, its 5 handed just like I like it, couple tight players to my left, live one on my right, I'm stuck a bit but making a comeback, then the live one leaves and a new player comes and sits on my right. I raise UTG with AT and he calls in the big blind. Flop is 3 rag hearts, I have the Th. He checks and calls on the flop and turn. On the river I of course have an ace-high nothing. We both check, I announce ace high, and he flips over two black kings. This is generally a good sign. Still I rack up and go home.

Something else I've noticed is now after switching from a 4/8 chip game to a 3/6 game, I tend to not pay attention as much to how I'm doing. This is despite essentially doubling the stakes [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]. I still buy in for my same 2 racks but now its 33 big bets instead of 25. I also frequently intentionally stack my chips in weird structures so its difficult for me to know what I'm up or down. It seems it helps my problem - I played for 4 hours on saturday in a really crappy game and was happy to find out I won $200 [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]