KK hand.. two pair on board

mimih · #1 05-08-2005, 09:56 AM

Ok, I wasn't sure if I should've 3bet the flop... did I play this ok?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.5.
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, SB 3-bets, Hero folds, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 25.02 BB

bozlax · #2 05-08-2005, 10:31 AM

Any read on UTG+1?

Generally, I want to get as many bets in on the flop as I can with KK, unless it's a REALLY scary flop. With all these players staying in by the time it gets back to you, you have some problems:

1. You aren't going to be able to protect your hand on any street, now (with 10BB in the pot on the turn, even if you successfully C/R players behind you are getting 6.5-1 on a call);

2. You've got 4 people representing that they're not worried about TP, and you have to start considering that at least one of them has 99 or 33;

3. KK is a hand that should play well against multiple opponents, but in this case 3 of your opponents are willing to cold-call (2 having check/cold-called).

I can't decide what to do! Ok, here it is: 3-bet the flop and call UTG+1's cap. Check the turn, and when bet into and called by everyone on the turn realize that you're drawing to 2 outs and not getting the odds and bail. Then, when another 9 fails to fall on the river and the results come:

UTG+1 turns A9 for two pair
SB turns T9 for two pair
MP1 turns QQ for two pair

turn around and kick the cat.

Fantam · #3 05-08-2005, 11:01 AM

This looks tricky. It looks to me as though someone has at least trip 3s or maybe 99. Either way it looks as though you are behind on the flop. I think I would have called the bets on the flop as you did, but then folded on the turn.

hicherbie · #4 05-08-2005, 11:26 AM

i play it the same way you did, except i might fold it sans reads it when SB bets out.

shadow29 · #5 05-08-2005, 11:28 AM

This is a pretty tough hand because of your relative position to the cold-callers. I just call the raise here because it will allow you to change significantly the way the turn plays.

This reasoning is due to the fact that on each street there is one player who is the aggressor. Normally, you want to be the aggressor, right? Well not in this hand. If you simply call the raise, UTG+1 is the aggressor. Therefore, since the natural tendency of .5/1 players is loose/passive, they'll want to "check to the raiser". This behavior, therefore, allows you to get checks out of BB and SB. If they check (which they will a huge percentage of the time) you can stop and go into UTG+1. He will then think that you're just testing him and raise with this T2TK, leaving the field to face two cold.

Granted, they have already called two cold on the flop, but generally .5/1 players will call a lot of bets on the flop and then (once the bets double) move out of the way to two full sized bets.

What you do after UTG+1 raises you on the turn depends on the number of cold-callers and the turn card. If it's a total blank (like 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) then you can 3-bet. You can feel more confident 3-betting with fewer cold-callers. If he caps, you're in trouble. I would probably just check/call the river (depending on what it is) because the pot will be big, and I like to get reads on people once I've invested this much into the pot.

If many cold-call, then the best bet is just to call the raise, and most likely check-call the river. Why call the river? You're getting a huge overlay from those not being the aggressor. This concept has significant ties to side-pot strategy.

However, given the way the hand played out, I probably would have folded to SB's river bet. Why? This is an odd bet from a passive opponent. I know that I've harped on the fact that odd bets can mean something, but not here. You're not heads up and this is .5/1. Unless you have a specific read that an opponent is tricky, assume that they are not tricky. It is quite likely that you will have to pay at least two full sized bets on the river to see showdown (perhaps more) and that's not something I'm comfortable doing on a double-paired board.

John

McGahee · #6 05-08-2005, 11:49 AM

Easy fold to the 1st river bet. I'd generally pull a stop & go on the turn and fold to a raise, but I think check/call is ok too.

BruinEric · #7 05-08-2005, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i play it the same way you did, except i might fold it sans reads it when SB bets out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% Usually on Party when a guy who's called the entire way "wakes up" and bets into two who have previously raised, he's got something good. It may even be a single 9 or 3, but even that beats you.

So when he bets out, you're up against two who feel strongly about their hand AND you might get in the middle of a raising war. Call me W-T, but I dump it.

There are occasional exceptions on Party -- I see players bet into me with nothing because they saw me fold to a re-raise or fold a pre-flop raised hand on the flop. But this is read-dependent.

Agthorr · #8 05-08-2005, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
KK is a hand that should play well against multiple opponents, but in this case 3 of your opponents are willing to cold-call (2 having check/cold-called).

[/ QUOTE ]

KK plays well against a few opponents because it's often top pair. Against many opponents, it plays well when you flop a set, because you are greatly favored to win and you're getting a lot of action.

shadow29 · #9 05-08-2005, 02:27 PM

KK plays well against 0-9 opponents.

Period.

Agthorr · #10 05-08-2005, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
KK plays well against 0-9 opponents.

Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it plays very well when you have many opponents, no set, and your typically-passive opponents are betting aggressively on a scary board.

(e.g., where any 3 or 9 beats you)