TPGK vs LAGs

scotty34 · #1 05-06-2005, 03:14 AM

Both villains in this hand are LAG. UTG+2 is especially aggressive. Will strongly overplay top pair and even middle pair sometimes.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

 I just re-read the section today in SSH on protecting your hand. This seemed like the perfect candidate for the scenario that a flop raise will do absolutely nothing, raising a safe turn card would have some effect. 

Turn: (5.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, Hero...?
 My plan to raise the safe turn card here kind of backfired on me when UTG+2 raised before I got the chance. I'm not sure quite what to make of this. The pot is medium sized, and as I pointed out, UTG+2 is very LAG. So what's my action here? I really have no idea whether it should be call, raise or fold. I got totally baffled on this one.

i wanna be me · #2 05-06-2005, 03:58 AM

I dunno about you - but I'd fold (BB leading out - although he is LAG - usually means at least 2 pair). The pot's 5BB after the flop, and it's 2 to you on the turn.

You're getting 4-1 now to see a card (minus the possible re-raise by the BB), and you're looking at 5.6-1 to improve to at least 2 pair. If you were 100% that your two pair would be good here I *might* call - but I'm not confident. Donks can get hands too....

scotty34 · #3 05-06-2005, 04:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BB leading out - although he is LAG - usually means at least 2 pair

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you basing this on? I would NEVER put someone on two pair simply because they led the flop and turn. In my experience, a LAG leading could have anything from a weak ten to a flush draw to mid-pair to a gutshot that I am beating.

If he flopped the straight or flopped a set, I'm sure he would check-raise the flop, or wait until the turn to do so. He may lead with two-pair, but he may even attempt to C/R. I am quite certain I am ahead of BB on the flop. It is UTG+2's raise that I am moderately concerned about.

i wanna be me · #4 05-06-2005, 06:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB leading out - although he is LAG - usually means at least 2 pair

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you basing this on? I would NEVER put someone on two pair simply because they led the flop and turn. In my experience, a LAG leading could have anything from a weak ten to a flush draw to mid-pair to a gutshot that I am beating.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right - it's UTG+2 that worried me as well. the BB isn't really worrying me, but you do have to be aware (BB special could be anything).

i didn't mean to put BB on specifically 2 pair or better - I don't really think the BB has an impact on how you play this hand. unless he sucks out a boat or something, you have to beat UTG+2 to win the pot. You don't have the odds to draw out on him IMO, especially calling 2 cold on the turn. I can't see you being ahead here.

bigalt · #5 05-06-2005, 06:24 AM

it sounds to me like UTG+2 read the same section.

i don't think you're in a position to be protecting your hand on any street, with BB betting and you acting last.

i would go ahead and raise the flop-- your hand is probably best but not all that strong that you can be assured it is.

the way it played out, i'm mucking it.

yellowjack · #6 05-06-2005, 07:35 AM

First off, I don't see raising as an option as it overcommits us to a showdown and just the concept of putting in 3-bets on the turn with just top pair even vs. LAGs who are only potentially behind you is -EV. If it gets capped after you 3-bet, would you fold right there? If the answer is yes, then it should have never been 3-bet imho. If we're really optimistic, BB will fold TPTK to the 3-bet and UTG+2 will pay us off.

If we elect to call, we hope this slows down BB. All things considered, I can't fold the hand here given your reads. The pot is not reasonably large (but getting there) and your read seems to be good enough. I call here and making a crying call if only BB shows further aggression. However I will fold if BB 3-bets and MP2 caps on the turn. They may be LAGs, but I can't see an reasonable LAG doing this while NOT having you beat.

Chances of you drawing close to dead with a better hand? Very slim here. I think a week ago I would have folded instantly. I've been smacked around some since then. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Edit: Wow my advice seems wrong in my head no matter what I change it to be. I can see why you posted this. halp.

ajrenni · #7 05-06-2005, 07:47 AM

I think I fold here. You could still be ahead, especially if both villains are LAGs. However, when UTG+2 gets involved after a blank (unless he has 54), I start to suspect a slowplayed set. More importantly, if you are ahead, you still have to dodge a ton of cards on the river in order to win. One of the players could have the flush draw, and an Ace, Queen, or Jack will probably be trouble, and an 8 or 9 would be scary as well. The vulnerability of your hand really drives your equity down, and combined with the fact that you could be drawing to only 2 outs at this point, 4:1 doesn't seem worth it, especially since you are not closing the action, and raising will likely not buy you a free showdown against these LAGs.

McGahee · #8 05-06-2005, 07:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
it sounds to me like UTG+2 read the same section.

i don't think you're in a position to be protecting your hand on any street, with BB betting and you acting last.

i would go ahead and raise the flop--

[/ QUOTE ]

ArturiusX · #9 05-06-2005, 08:06 AM

I like your play here.

Take note that there's no good cards for you, except perhaps a deuce. All cards will either complete a straight, or become an overcard.

I think calling with the intention on improving is the best. Take a shot at the pot if no one wants to have it, but don't think your hand will be good by the river in this draw friendly board.

scotty34 · #10 05-06-2005, 03:53 PM

Hmmm... well I guess I got mixed answers from everyone here. I think this probably was a very tough position. It would have been an easy muck for me if UTG+2 was anything but a LAG. I decided to call, which I still can't decide whether it was a good play or not. Here is the river.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

River: (10.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero...?

This is definetly not what I was expecting the action to be at all. I still have no idea what to put UTG+2 on. A busted draw? TP and fearing I was calling down with an A? A straight or A7 or something, and wants to try a strange check-raise? Check behind here or bet for value?