Raise this flop?

[btspider]

yeah, the pot is borderline large. if it were 4 SB's, i'm fine with a call. if its 10 SB's, I'd be anti-call. both seem close.. but 8 SB's is closer to raise territory.

the T's and J's are a bit tricky here. obviously the T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is clean and we only clean up half the T outs since it would generally be a split pot. so 1.5 outs of potential cleanup.. before discounting for catching and losing.

the J's are better since they can win the pot for us outright when they are cleaned up.

we won't be folding QJ/QT/T7 hands from anyone. and gutter + mid/bottom pair hands may call 2.. so actual out cleanup may only be around 2.5 - 3 outs total.. which is fairly significant since we have 2 streets to go.

note: some of losing in "catching and losing" in this can actually mean losing to our own hand. if we clean up the straight, catch on the turn, but hit the flush on the river, we didn't need to clean up the straight in the first place. i assume i'm doing this right [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] its late..

[chunk]

Calling this flop is the second best decision you could make.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]


we won't be folding QJ/QT/T7 hands from anyone. and gutter + mid/bottom pair hands may call 2.. so actual out cleanup may only be around 2.5 - 3 outs total.. which is fairly significant since we have 2 streets to go.

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The thing is, when "out cleaning" fails, we're getting value on your raise. The only situation where a raise isn't stellar is when we raise and get it HU against the original bettor who has JTs or another holding that has us drawing to 9-13 outs (QT, QJ, etc.).

It's really worth a raise here becuase it's either going to clean up outs or we're going to get value from raising.

Rob

[martinimagic]

Calling on this one. A raise is not getting it HU here. I either want a bunch of callers or HU... not a fan of the in between. With a bigger pot you can try to throw the knockout punches.

[gopnik]

I am raising this. You might have the best hand and if not you have million outs.