Players Union

[Stu Pidasso]

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What you are talking about isn't that different than what the prop agency I currently work for does; in exchange for playing on the site (no schedules or anything just come and play when you want) we get our rake back.

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A players association is different. While part of its function would be to work with sites to reduce rake for high volume players it would have other duties as well. It could lobby congress to change the laws to be more favorable to the online player. It could make site endorsements. Provide meadiation services between players and the house. Etc.

Also, as players, we should be paying some rake. The house does provide a service to us and should be compensated. However, since we do so much volume, there isn't really any reason why we shouldn't get a discount. If we organize, we stand a better chance of getting it.

Stu

[lacky]

this is exactly what gamesgrid is doing now. The problem is, if party wanted to reward high volume players, they would do it. They figure they are rewarding the high volume players by spending the money to bring fish to the tables. Thats what we really want. If I wanted max rakeback I would be playing at gamesgrid right now. Unfortunately (or fortunately I guess) I make far more playing in the softer games at party.

I truelly hope and expect a rake war will breakout at some point. It has happened in every industry that starts out with really high profit margins. Perhaps gamesgrid will be the start of that trend. But, for it to happen it will have to be a very balanced approach, with aggressive marketing to bring in the fish for good table conditions, and an easy program that directly rewards high volume play. If a site can get that combo right it could take enough market share to force some changes. The problem is to get a site up and running with that model requires deep pockets. If Harrah's etc. decided to take over the online market they could pull it off, but the small struggling start-ups we've been seeing just don't have the resources.

The online world will get more competitive, but it will happen from major companies coming in and undercutting the competition for market share.

The ultra high volume players play so much because it's how they make their living. If you told me and 100 of my friend that party wouldn't deal but ultimate made us a sweetheart deal, unless they also brought in a bunch of new players it wouldn't be worth moving. Gamesgrid has the sweetest deal by far right now, but I would still make far less playing there.

anyway, my random thoughts

Steve

[pokerplayer28]

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"you guys overestimate how valuable you are to a site."

I concur.

-Michael

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It takes me about 5 seconds to open poker tracker and find out exactly how valuable my business is. Now i don't generate 5 digit monthly rake figures, but my understanding is there are people on these forums that do. These people are extremely valuable to the sites they play on, and in any sort of organized group they represent a huge amount of bargaining power.

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8 fish are playing in a game with 2 8-tabling 2+2 sharks. Who gets the money? The sharks make their 2 BB hour off the fish, cashes out and pays the rent with it; Party scoops up the remains.

10 fish in a game. Who gets the money? Party gets all of it over time.

Who do you think are "the whales" in Party's eyes? Who do you think are the "card-counters and advantage player scum"?

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this is just ignorant. Party gets the same amount of rake from a table no matter what the fish/shark ratio is. You're not winning money from the site (like a card counter), but from the other players.

Advantages i have over a player who just created an account on party today:

1. i play multiple tables, which generates more rake
2. i play more hours/week, which generates more rake
3. the new player may end up being a long term rake contributer, but most likely will lose a few hundred dollars and quit. i will keep paying rake for at least the next few months, and more than likely the next few years.

How much more valuable am i rake wise than a new player? 25x? 50x? The number gets rediculous if you're talking about someone playing at higher stakes (i'm a low stakes guy). The point is, WE are the whales. These sites aren't just looking for new customers, they're looking for new customers who will eventually turn into us. A marketing strategy that takes us into account only makes good financial sense.

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10 fish buy in $200 each, eventually party will net $1500-$1900

8 fish 2 high volume player all buy in for $200 the 2 high volume players net $300 leaving party with $1000

$1500 > $1000

here for multitabling
9 fish $200 each party gets about $1500
9 fish
9 fish
9 fish
$1500 x 4 = $6000
9 fish 1 multitabler
9 fish 1 multitabler
9 fish 1 multitabler
9 fish 1 multitabler
if the multi tabler busts out the fish and profits $2000 in the process that leaves $5200 for party

crude examples but u get the idea

[Stu Pidasso]

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10 fish buy in $200 each, eventually party will net $1500-$1900

8 fish 2 high volume player all buy in for $200 the 2 high volume players net $300 leaving party with $1000

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Assume party earns $90/hr per table. 80 fish generate $720 an hour. Each fish is worth $9/hr. 80 Fish and one 8-tabler generate $792 an hour. The 8-tabler is worth $72 an hour.

$72 > $9

Stu

[SinSixer]

You are not thinking about this correctly.

Lets assume 9 fish and 1 shark each have a $100 bankroll. They play at he same table of limit holdem untill each one is broke or only one person left with money.

Now, it is clear that the maximum amount of money Party can make from this table is $1000, assuming all the money went to the rake.

Lets define fish as a poor player, that despite having poor opponents, will still have a hard time beating the rake. Throw 10 of these players at a table, and Party would eventually rake all the money away.

However, what will happen when the shark joins the game, he will win 2/BB100 from these fish, money that will go to his bank account and out of play for good. This is money that Party Poker will never rake.

Sure the good player keeps games going, but as long as there is a healthy supply of players who have no shot of beating the rake in the long run , the Sharks AND Party Poker are COMPETING for the fishes money. The current state of the union, Party do not rely on Sharks to keep games going.

Right now, good players are parasites in the Party system. When the time comes and the stock of fish is depleted, then we can expect Party to develop a more symbiotic relationship with the better players.

[Stu Pidasso]

The part you are missing is that if there are no tables there is no rake. If all the sharks suddenly vanished there would be less tables and party would get less rake. Some of the players who were long time losers would become winners in these now softer games. These now winning players would be the new "sharks" pulling money from the game to pay rent, hire hookers, etc.

Stu

[pokerplayer28]

you think these sharks are just going to leave a pool full of fish where fish become sharks? party will call your bluff

[FishBurger]

If Party wanted more people playing, wouldn't they open up more 30/60 tables? There's always people waiting at those tables.

[pokerplayer28]

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Right now, good players are parasites in the Party system. When the time comes and the stock of fish is depleted, then we can expect Party to develop a more symbiotic relationship with the better players.

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when this day comes itll be the end of online poker even if you have 10,000 8 tabling sharks theres nothing party could do to save the game even if they offered 80% rake back the sharks would still lose 20%. Sharks dont lose money sharks dont pass money around until rake gobbles it up. almost instantly those sharks will leave. luckily a sucker is born every day

[Stu Pidasso]

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you think these sharks are just going to leave a pool full of fish where fish become sharks? party will call your bluff

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Sharks will go where the money is. There is no bluff for party to call. There are other sites with lots of games full of fish. Perhaps not as fishy as party poker, but fishy nevertheless. A decent reduction in rake from any one of them and suddenly those sites become more profitable for the volume player.

To be quite honest, were it not for rake rebate through affiliates I would be playing in a fish hole more fishy than party poker. Rakerebates from affiliates attracted all the sharks to party and left some of the other sites easy pickings.

Stu