First Posted Hand - General Feedback

[crumpentunt]

Geez...

A read just makes this hand so much easier.

[medaugh]

I'm still pretty new, but here is my 2 cents. In my opinion the key to this hand IS the pre flop raise. With out it there is only 8 sb in the pot and it's 9-1 to us to call. With the pre flop raise it is 15-1 and although IF we are drawing to 2 outs I would look up the turn. I know it's not the 23-1 that the 7's give us, but the implied odds make up for it. If we miss on the turn then we let it go no problem. Am I way off here or what?

[Catt]

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If we can agree on something, I think it is that just calling the flop is the worst play you could do here.

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By far.

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What are you guys smoking?

I prefer the raise to the call in this circumstance, but folding is much worse than calling. It's 14:1 to Hero with one to act behind. Hero might be ahead; if he is not, he has his "7" outs, and two weakish backdoor draws. Even if we discount the "7" for putting three to a straight on board, there is plenty upside to peel one off the flop.

This is not close to a "raise or fold" situation (and those situations come a lot less often than people think, IMHO).

[KaiShin]

Yes well, somehow I missed the backdoor draws because I was focusing on the "raise the flop" debate [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You're right, folding is way worse than both.

[deception5]

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I'm still pretty new, but here is my 2 cents. In my opinion the key to this hand IS the pre flop raise. With out it there is only 8 sb in the pot and it's 9-1 to us to call. With the pre flop raise it is 15-1 and although IF we are drawing to 2 outs I would look up the turn. I know it's not the 23-1 that the 7's give us, but the implied odds make up for it. If we miss on the turn then we let it go no problem. Am I way off here or what?

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The reason that you are raising here preflop is not to give you odds on later streets. If there were they case you could raise preflop with 74s hoping that it would give you odds to chase your backdoor flush/straight later. This is a losing play because you are paying two bets to see the flop when you are likely way behind (and it usually not even worth 1 bet).

The idea is you can raise this preflop because you have a fair amount of equity at that point. You are likely ahead (typically not up against any bigger pairs) and could eliminate players with a raise who might get lucky later. Even if you don't, you are charging them to see the flop when you will win more than your fair share of the time.

Calling preflop here would be ok as well in my opinion, but in that case you would play this hand for set value and likely fold if you missed the flop. You wouldn't lose as much when you didn't hit your set but also wouldn't gain quite as much when you do. But in this scenario, most of your money is going in when you are a huge favorite.

[deception5]

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I wouldn't fold to a flop 3-bet either. I was just using that assumption to simplify my calculations

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Just making sure [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[medaugh]

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The reason that you are raising here preflop is not to give you odds on later streets. If there were they case you could raise preflop with 74s hoping that it would give you odds to chase your backdoor flush/straight later. This is a losing play because you are paying two bets to see the flop when you are likely way behind (and it usually not even worth 1 bet).

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Although thats what my statement implied, what I ment was more along the lines of "hey I got a legit hand I'm going to raise".

[TripleH68]

Preflop raise is just fine. Given that there are posters I lean toward just calling though.

Flop call is debatable. You are likely behind and getting 14 to 1 on your call. At least you hold the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but hitting a set is about 22 to 1. If you are behind, you will not make this deficit up when you hit...and you did not in this hand.

[USDaniels]

I would not have raised pre-flop.

I think you played it right after that. With 5 PFR callers I'd assume one of them has an A which causes your flop slowdown (the odds demand a call, however).

If you blank the turn, you have to fold. You'd need 22:1 to beat a pair of A's. However, an 8 or 4 on the turn gives you the added outs to call, right?

[TomBrooks]

PREFLOP: I wouldn't raise 77 with two early and one middle limper. 77 works best heads up or maybe three way where you might be able to win unimproved; or else multi-way where you look to make a set or (probably) fold the hand. In the multiway case you want to see the flop as cheaply as possible because you are only going to make a set 11% of the time (8.5:1) and you want to encourage the blinds and posters to come along to pay you off when you connect.

FLOP: Good call (? - see below) Your probably up against an ace and need to make a set or a straight to improve. You have 2 outs to the set and a 3% chance to improve to a backdoor straight which is the equivilent of 1 1/2 outs. With 3 1/2 total outs your're a 13:1 dog against an ace or overpair to your sevens and your getting the right odds in this inflated pot to call.

But, and the reason I wrote "?" above is because you will probably have to invest a big bet on the turn, so I'm not sure if you can count the 1 1/2 outs on the flop call like I did. Maybe someone else addressed this already in the thread which I haven't read yet.

TURN and RIVER: GooT

Edit note: After reading the thread, I realized as someone mentioned that you have a weak backdoor flush draw. As you only have seven high, I would count it as one out instead of a full 1 1/2, but it still tends to make the flop call even more correct.