1/2 Profitable or a Waste of Time?

[USGrant]

I don't want to re-hash a tired topic, so can a 2+2 Vet point me to a good thread on 1/2 profitability. I am interested if there is anyway that the typical 1/2 limit 6-8 multi-way pots can be played with the same strategy offered in 2+2's SSHE. E.g. Will my AA, KK, AKs be eternally busted by early position limpers/cold callers holding 3-4os, Q-4s, J-7os, etc., etc. or should I just stick to my guns and wait for the fish to fry.

[ErrantNight]

1/2 is immensely profitable. and you should learn to crush it before you consider moving up. if you have trouble there, move back to .50/1. trust me. if you're asking this question you'll get killed at anything higher.

the reason you don't see people sticking around 1/2 is that you can kill higher limits, too, where more money is at stake [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] not because it's too hard or something silly like that.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to re-hash a tired topic, so can a 2+2 Vet point me to a good thread on 1/2 profitability. I am interested if there is anyway that the typical 1/2 limit 6-8 multi-way pots can be played with the same strategy offered in 2+2's SSHE. E.g. Will my AA, KK, AKs be eternally busted by early position limpers/cold callers holding 3-4os, Q-4s, J-7os, etc., etc. or should I just stick to my guns and wait for the fish to fry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread SSHE.

[Pokey]

It sounds like you're having fish draw out on you successfully. There are several responses to this event.

Some people erroneously feel that the table is an "any two will do" table, so preflop hand selection is just a waste of time. They loosen up their standards and start playing anything they get, hoping to win with better play. The real winner here is the rake, since nobody can crush the game consistently if they're playing any two cards.

Others get despondent over being drawn out and decide to move up in stakes to a place where people "will respect my raises." They mistakenly feel that a 10/20 game would be easier than the 1/2 game, since they can more successfully bluff, and since they won't face the miracle outers on the river. This thinking is the second-best way to lose a fortune in a short period of time. (The best way is to become a Scientologist.)

The fact of the matter is, we have a love-hate relationship with the fish, calling stations, and donks. They feed the pot, they call relentlessly with no hope of winning, and they pay off time after time when it's incredibly obvious that they have no hope of winning: for this, we love them. At the same time, though, they've usually got SOME miracle that will give them the pot. Maybe it's a runner-runner nut flush. Maybe it's a double-gutshot straight. Maybe it's a miracle two-outer low set. Maybe it's the three-outer reverse-counterfeit to our (shared) top pair. When they hit their miracle, the bile rises in our throats and we feel the frustration at the profound unfairness of it all. It's at that time that we really want to just walk away from the table and do something -- anything -- to prevent ever getting drawn out on again.

These draws are wonderful! They put money in our pockets.

Hypothetical example: you've got A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button. three limp to you; you raise. six see the flop:

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Our donks have the following hands:

ATo, who draws to the three-out winner.
T7o, drawing to the four-out gutshot straight.
Q2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], drawing to the runner-runner flush.
44, drawing to the two-out set.
33, drawing to the two-out set.

Now, the field has about 12.5 outs against you, which is a VERY strong draw. If all five of these opponents go to the river against you, you're going to lose this hand about half the time. And WHEN you lose, it's going to be to a miracle card. That's frustrating as hell. However, notice that you're going to WIN about half the time, and when you win, you'll be getting a 5:1 payoff.

Add better draws to the opponents and they draw out on you even more often; however, remember that if you win this hand just one third of the time, you're making a killing.

When you lose to a miracle river card, swear loudly at your monitor. Throw a pencil across the room. Tap the screen menacingly. Then type "NH," ante up, and beat the snot out of the moron on the next hand.

Stick with it -- in the long run, donks are your best friends.

[USGrant]

Thanks man, that's a good post. Two minutes after I originally posted I sat down to a 1/2 game and my first hand, from a forced blind in mid-position (folded to me -- first to act) I raised it to $2 with AA. The button called and the blinds folded. The button chased a J 8 4 flop down with Q 10os and hit a 9 on the river. He had no pot odds and 4 outs. I wrote: "interesting" He said "I wanted to find out what kind of player you were." How f_ing stupid is that? I love it.

[chiachu]

i think ive read before that the 2-4 tables were softer than the 1-2 tables at party (for full 10 player tables), since there are no shorthanded tables at the 2-4 stakes. Is there any merit in this statement?

[bweiser8311962]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like you're having fish draw out on you successfully. There are several responses to this event.

Some people erroneously feel that the table is an "any two will do" table, so preflop hand selection is just a waste of time. They loosen up their standards and start playing anything they get, hoping to win with better play. The real winner here is the rake, since nobody can crush the game consistently if they're playing any two cards.

Others get despondent over being drawn out and decide to move up in stakes to a place where people "will respect my raises." They mistakenly feel that a 10/20 game would be easier than the 1/2 game, since they can more successfully bluff, and since they won't face the miracle outers on the river. This thinking is the second-best way to lose a fortune in a short period of time. (The best way is to become a Scientologist.)

The fact of the matter is, we have a love-hate relationship with the fish, calling stations, and donks. They feed the pot, they call relentlessly with no hope of winning, and they pay off time after time when it's incredibly obvious that they have no hope of winning: for this, we love them. At the same time, though, they've usually got SOME miracle that will give them the pot. Maybe it's a runner-runner nut flush. Maybe it's a double-gutshot straight. Maybe it's a miracle two-outer low set. Maybe it's the three-outer reverse-counterfeit to our (shared) top pair. When they hit their miracle, the bile rises in our throats and we feel the frustration at the profound unfairness of it all. It's at that time that we really want to just walk away from the table and do something -- anything -- to prevent ever getting drawn out on again.

These draws are wonderful! They put money in our pockets.

Hypothetical example: you've got A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button. three limp to you; you raise. six see the flop:

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Our donks have the following hands:

ATo, who draws to the three-out winner.
T7o, drawing to the four-out gutshot straight.
Q2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], drawing to the runner-runner flush.
44, drawing to the two-out set.
33, drawing to the two-out set.

Now, the field has about 12.5 outs against you, which is a VERY strong draw. If all five of these opponents go to the river against you, you're going to lose this hand about half the time. And WHEN you lose, it's going to be to a miracle card. That's frustrating as hell. However, notice that you're going to WIN about half the time, and when you win, you'll be getting a 5:1 payoff.

Add better draws to the opponents and they draw out on you even more often; however, remember that if you win this hand just one third of the time, you're making a killing.

When you lose to a miracle river card, swear loudly at your monitor. Throw a pencil across the room. Tap the screen menacingly. Then type "NH," ante up, and beat the snot out of the moron on the next hand.

Stick with it -- in the long run, donks are your best friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely great post. much harder to actually follow though.

i had a/q busted yesterday by a7 when the flop came q/3/4 ... turn 5, river 6 and he made a straight ... called bets on every street, including a preflop raise. what are you going to do?

[brazilio]

no. Actually not at all. 1/2 is a different game than .5/1 and 2/4, but skipping 1/2 is almost always going to be a mistake. Skipping 1/2 6-max is just as much of a mistake.