Do you just push with KK preflop?

[mauisupaman]

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If you raised preflop all in the player with Jacks will call you most times anyway.

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And that's a type of situation I'd want. That's why I wanted to push all-in in retrospect.
Adam

[mauisupaman]

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I'm allin post-flop as long as there's no Ace, paired board or other extreme scariness.

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I'm definitely all-in postflop as well IF I make a moderate re-raise PF. But what of the option of all in PF. I think there are a sufficient number of players in these small MTT that will call a big all in as a 4:1 dog.
Adam

[Rushmore]

Essentially, you're wondering if you should do a stop-and-go.

With a limper, a raiser, and two flat callers, you probably couldn't find a worse spot to stop and go.

In this sort of tourney, against this sort of action, I'd say a push is a great idea, for exactly the reason you stated--you'll probably get one call, which is perfect here.

Sometimes, you'll just pick up what's in the middle. Oh well, beats getting sucked out on because you decided to price three players in instead of just one.

[mauisupaman]

Hey Rush,
I thought a stop and go, by Raymer's definition, places you in early position? Doesn't it go something like: there's a raiser and you're sitting in the blinds with the probable best hand, but if you push it may not be enough to fold the raiser. So, you call the raise and push on the flop regardless of what falls. That way you minimize risk, but win smaller pots.
Adam

[Nottom]

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My consideration of pushing pre flop was based on the rational that if I raised to T420 which was a third of my stack, I would be getting the rest of my money in by either the flop or turn on most boards that come out. So, I felt pushing may have been a better option.

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You want to get all your money in against a worse hand. Most will not call an all-in unless the players are really bad.

You want your opponent to get all his chips in the pot with JJ, and the best way to do that is to raise to 400 or so and get the rest in postflop.

[davidross]

THe only reason I can think of to push is if you have a strong feeling a worse hand is going to call. You only get so many chances to double up in a tournament and you're missing a great chance to get more chips out of this hand by raising less than all-in. Unless you have a table image as wild, or really believe they might put you on a steal because the raise is too big, I like your play.You just need to practice dodging those 2 outers.

[davidross]

but there are more of them who will call the post-flop all-in with AT on a T high board but would have folded to the pre-flop all-in. I still think you get more chips in the long run playing it the way you did.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought a stop and go, by Raymer's definition, places you in early position? Doesn't it go something like: there's a raiser and you're sitting in the blinds with the probable best hand, but if you push it may not be enough to fold the raiser. So, you call the raise and push on the flop regardless of what falls. That way you minimize risk, but win smaller pots.

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I think that what you're saying is technically correct.

However, for the sake of expedience, I have redefined the term as to smooth call preflop when you know that you are going allin on the flop, regardless of what comes.

I don't think I am taking too much liberty here. The spirit's essentially the same; it simply lacks the feature of recognizing that you likely have no folding equity preflop, and might possibly have some on the flop.

Hopefully, I am not about to be nitted to death. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[mauisupaman]

Sounds scary to me especially with KK's, and a couple of players seeing the flop. What if an A comes, and someone pushes or makes a sizeable bet in front of you? Or do you only push when it's checked to you and reevaluate if there's a bet in front?

[Rushmore]

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but there are more of them who will call the post-flop all-in with AT on a T high board but would have folded to the pre-flop all-in. I still think you get more chips in the long run playing it the way you did.

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But don't you think that thinning the field a little is important here? The line he chose runs the risk of pricing in more players than he should want.

In these low buy-in things, against this many players, I'd bet good money there's a player among them with 99-QQ who will call an all-in bet.

And again, I'd much rather play one guy as a 4:1 favorite to double up than three guys as a 2:3 favorite to quadruple up, or whatever it might be.