Pokerstars Tourney Hand

[TexasDon]

When I first started playing tournaments, good players advised me that I was playing a little too timidly. I turned my aggressiveness up a notch with good results. Now, maybe I have turned it up a little too much. Here's a hand I would appreciate feedback on:

Yesterday's $200+15 tourney on pokerstars. 6th round, blinds are 100/200 and 25 antes. 149 players left, average stack is about 5000. My stack is about 8400. The largest stack of the tourney is on my left. He's sitting on about 17000. He doubled up about 6 hands ago on a marginal hand (I think it was top pair with a weak kicker). Since then he has been bullying the table. He has played I think 4 out of the 6 hands dealt and has bet out on the flop or check raised the flop every time he has been in the hand, and has taken down the pot each time.

I'm on the small blind and I pick up A9s, diamonds. There are three limpers when it gets to me and I complete the blind. Big stack on the BB checks.

Flop comes: 942 two hearts.

I'm first to act and I check. Big stack bets the pot, 1200. All fold back around to me.

I'm feeling pretty sure I have the best hand. I think if he had pocket tens or better he would have raised preflop (although I admit it is possible he could have checked against such a large field with TT, JJ or QQ - I just didn't think this guy playing as aggressively as he was would do that). It is also possible that his garbage big blind hand made 2 pair, or that he holds 44 or 22 (or 99 although less likely) for a set. More likely I put him on a flush draw. It is also possible he could have made that bet with 9x and I had him out-kicked, or he might have even made that bet with pocket 5s - 8s.

I move all in, expecting a fold. Nope. With roughly 11,000 in the pot, he calls my 7200 raise and flips over A8s (hearts) for a nut flush draw.

If I survive and take down the pot I am in first place of the tournament. Of course, the first card off the deck is a heart and I finish in 149th place.

It is pretty easy to justify my play with 20/20 hindsight I correctly put him on a flush draw and made him pay the maximum price to draw. He put his chips in when he was a dog and wasn't getting the right pot odds to make the call. So he made a mistake and drew out.

But was this the right play at this point in the tournament? Here are the thoughts running through my head:
1. I was the second chip leader at my table by far, so I had a good opportunity to gather chips if I avoid a confrontation with the big stack.

2. There was some chance that I missed my read and he actually held, say, TT or JJ or 2 pair.

3. Even if I made the correct read and put him on the flush draw, I am only a 2:1 favorite (actually a little less). I only have 200 invested in the hand at that point. Maybe I should have avoided that confrontation in hopes of finding even more favorable opportunities later in the tournament, hopefully against smaller stacks that can't put me out.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. If my play was not correct, then what should I have done? Fold to the bully just because he is the big stack? Call and see if the heart flops out on the turn? Seems like this was a raise or fold situation to me, but I am interested in hearing other viewpoints. Sorry for the long post. Thanks.

TD

[Jimbo]

1. I was the second chip leader at my table by far, so I had a good opportunity to gather chips if I avoid a confrontation with the big stack. Good thinking

I move all in, expecting a fold. Nope. With roughly 11,000 in the pot, he calls my 7200 raise and flips over A8s (hearts) for a nut flush draw. Poor thinking


It is pretty easy to justify my play with 20/20 hindsight I correctly put him on a flush draw and made him pay the maximum price to draw. More poor thinking

3. Even if I made the correct read and put him on the flush draw, I am only a 2:1 favorite (actually a little less). I only have 200 invested in the hand at that point. Maybe I should have avoided that confrontation in hopes of finding even more favorable opportunities later in the tournament, hopefully against smaller stacks that can't put me out. More good thinking

If my play was not correct, then what should I have done? Fold Fold to the bully just because he is the big stack Yes fold for that very reason Call and see if the heart flops out on the turn? Much better than going allin but still better to fold Seems like this was a raise or fold situation to me... More like a fold or fold situation although some may disagree. I do not like going against the chip leader, particularly when he is on my left. I usually try to play premium hands in position under these circumstances and either trap or wait for a table change. Better luck next time.

[MS Sunshine]

I love the way you played this hand

Half the field is gone and you are in good position, BUT you still have a LONG way to the money. This hand has come down almost perfect for you. Yes, two pair is your biggest danger. Small chance of 22 or 44, but the guy is in there swinging and feels he can hit anything. Make him do it.

I know the rule, if you have a decent stack don't play against someone who can bust you with a small edge. But with so far to the money for you and a lottery ticket winner offerring good bets to anyone that wants it, reach up and grab the brass ring.

The money makes a difference. If this was a $33 tournament, or if he missed, this hand never gets posted. You are questioning yourself about risk when everything was done right. You caught him with a draw, ruined his odds, BUT he decided to play with the worst of it.

Ships happen.

MS Sunshine

[TexasDon]

Thanks for the reply Jimbo. A couple of follow up questions:

1. Why is it "poor thinking" that I forced him to make a bad call and put a lot of chips into the pot when he had the worst of it?

2. Is that the only way to play against a bully - hunker down and play premium cards? If so, then how am I supposed to gather chips from the rest of the table? With the bully on my left, I would essentially be shut down if I play as you suggest. Why shouldn't I be more aggressive against him if I suspect he is playing too fast? With the play I made, even if you assume he will always call, roughly two times out of three I will end up the chip leader of the tourney and one time out of three I will get knocked out. That's not counting all the times he might actually make the right play and fold the pot to me.

Anyone else have thoughts?

[sdplayerb]

Very interesting hand.
I can see why he called, he thought he had a flush draw plus his A being live (which was wrong).

You made a good read on his flush draw.
I don't like to push in on the flop with a pair vs a flush draw as you have an edge, but not a huge one, ie it is ok for him to draw to it.

I like to make a decent bet, then if the flush misses, push in there so he has bad odds on his call. a good player will fold, but many will call cause they have to know if they hit there flush.

I like to get really good odds if I am going to push in.
Of course I made two bad bluffs in two tourneys yesterday crippling me..so I should heed my own advice more.

SD

[Bubmack]

I think with the Bully to your left, you were almost forced to fight. If you dont, you'll have him raising you all throughout the tourney. So if you can grab a chunk of his stack it would slow him down and speed you up.

Tough call, But I too think it is all-in or fold...dont let the Big stack draw out on you. (which you tried to prevent)

[RiverOtter]

I think your play was fine if you really thought he would lay down a flush draw. With this particular player though, he was obviously seeing his hand and not thinking about what you might have. He was a level one thinker and therefore you should have either called the flop bet and folded on the turn when the flush hit, or folded on the flop. Tournament poker sometimes requires you to fold the best hand even though you thought you were a 2-1 favorite.I agree that he played this hand poorly and probably has no chance to win the tourney, but alas neither do you when he hit his flush. Did you really think he would fold? He had already showed that he would call with top pair weak kicker. I have had very similar situations. Turns out to be a craps shoot with these players. You had a long time to go yet in this tourney before you made the money. Did you really need to gamble here? I would prefer to wait until I was a 3-1 or 4-1 favorite.

[Jimbo]

Hi TexasDon,

1. Why is it "poor thinking" that I forced him to make a bad call and put a lot of chips into the pot when he had the worst of it? You thought you were a 2/1 favorite when you put him on a flush draw yet you were closer to a 3/2 favorite. Why gamble with such a small edge? For that matter he could just as easly had the T/J of hearts and you then become a 5/4 dog even with top pair, top kicker. Even suppose he had the 2h/8h even here you are only tossing a coin. In other words you cannot accurately put him on a hand you are in serious trouble and when you correctly put him on a hand you are still gambling. Why gamble with a unpredictable player who can bust you?

2. Is that the only way to play against a bully - hunker down and play premium cards? No but probably the safest. If so, then how am I supposed to gather chips from the rest of the table? Play as normal unless he plays every single hand then you must tighten up. With the bully on my left, I would essentially be shut down if I play as you suggest. Yes having an agressive chip leader on your left was not fun but it was a fact. If you know you may drown while attempting to swim the English Channel then why jump out of the safety of your boat? Why shouldn't I be more aggressive against him if I suspect he is playing too fast? I believe you would have learned that by your disasterous result, if not nothing I can say will help. With the play I made, even if you assume he will always call, roughly two times out of three I will end up the chip leader of the tourney and one time out of three I will get knocked out. Not true, see my comments above.[/b] That's not counting all the times he might actually make the right play and fold the pot to me. The right play with that particular hand perhaps but not necessarily the right play with a variety of hands he may have. In case he has any overpair you are a 4/1 dog! How do you like your chances against a pair of pocket tens (or better) now?

It is doubtful I have changed your mind but I hope you have something to consider the next time you are faced with this situatuion. Additionally keep in mind that you may be up for a table change very soon to more favorable circumstances. When faced with a situation such as yours patience truly becaomes a virtue.

Hope to see many more posts from you in the future, this was a good one that presented a very common problem which is difficult to handle.

[TexasDon]

Thanks for a great response RiverOtter. I pretty much agree with all your thoughts. I do think I drastically overestimated the likelihood that he would fold in that situation. He was probably a relatively new player (and I should have known that by his play), and if I think back to my own play when I was very inexperienced, I probably would have thought that a call was nearly automatic in that spot.

I also agree that it is best to look for situations where you likely have the other player dominated before moving all your chips in early or midway through a tourney. In this particular spot I was guilty of looking for a hand with which to take a stand against the bully and went for it where I thought I was at least a 2:1 favorite, with some possibility that I had him dominated.

Making a play like that is always a judgment call depending on the exact situation, so maybe next time I will play it the same way or maybe I won't.

In any event, thanks for the fine post.