JJ hand with very little info on pfr who pushes flop

Lakitu · #1 04-20-2005, 01:14 AM

did i turn into a fish here?

UTG+2 i had very little info on because i just sat down not too long ago. so far he's played 12 out of the 13 hands i've been at the table and has raised 5 of them and called raises with a few others. on one hand he made a curious 12xbb raise and got one caller(MP3). neither player showed any strength until utg+2 bet the pot on the river and took it down.

MP3 i've played a couple of games with before and i figured him to be a fish. his vpip is about 28%. i played a similar hand with him the day before where i called an all-in re-raise from a maniac with just a 10's overpair, so he can probably put me on a mid pair in this hand too if he's paid attention.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

Hero ($24.65)
MP2 ($24.4)
MP3 ($24.15)
CO ($68.4)
Button ($15.55)
SB ($68.55)
BB ($36.65)
UTG ($62.8)
UTG+1 ($15.48)
UTG+2 ($24.8)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, MP3 calls $3, 4 folds.

Flop: ($9.35) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 calls $21.80 (All-In), Hero calls $21.65 (All-In), MP3 calls $21.15 (All-In).

Turn: ($73.95) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($73.95) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: $73.95

given the information i have on utg+2, do you think i'm justified in making this call? how often do you think my hand is good against his push?

the more i think about it the less i like it. i think if the flush draw weren't there it might be a different story. as it turned out even mp3's crazy hand had odds to make his call.

also does anyone play this differently pre-flop?

TreyOfLight · #2 04-20-2005, 06:52 AM

You don't have the correct odds to play the jacks for set value. You have to decide if your hand is best before the flop, and raise or fold.

Postflop, in a raised multiway pot against sane opponents, I think one could say it's never correct to call a substantial bet with naked jacks.

Lakitu · #3 04-20-2005, 12:26 PM

i wasn't playing for set value, i thought i probably had the best hand i just wasn't completely sure. i agree raising would have been better if i were going to play the hand. at the time i thought his action on the flop might help me decide if my read was right. also since he had played so passively on the first hand i thought it was likely that i could see a cheap showdown in the event that an A K or Q flops which would save me money and confirm my read one way or another.

thats the thing, i didn't think my opponents were sane. i already knew mp3 didn't need a premium hand to call that raise, the question is did i have enough info on utg+2 to conclude he wasn't either? 13 hands isn't a lot to go on, but i don't think i ever remember seeing 12 hands in a row that were worth playing or 5/13 worth a raise. was i over zealous in pegging him as a lag?

TreyOfLight · #4 04-20-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i wasn't playing for set value, i thought i probably had the best hand i just wasn't completely sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jacks are difficult to play well postflop. Even with a correct read (that you were ahead PF) and a jacks-friendly flop like this, a hand like KQd is a well-hidden favorite to win the hand.

When your JJ is best, it's usually not by much. If playing them for their unimproved value, I want all the money in preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
also since he had played so passively on the first hand i thought it was likely that i could see a cheap showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

"Passive" is not how I'd describe someone who plays 12 of 13 hands, raising 5 of them. It's possible he had a monster that one time.

"Maybe I'll get a cheap showdown" is a fancy way to say "I should fold."

[ QUOTE ]
thats the thing, i didn't think my opponents were sane. ... 13 hands isn't a lot to go on, but i don't think i ever remember seeing 12 hands in a row that were worth playing or 5/13 worth a raise. was i over zealous in pegging him as a lag?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have pushed. MP3 (likely) would have folded. There was a long thread -- also involving jacks -- here, where I commented on this play in more detail. Here's an excerpt:

[ QUOTE ]
The key thing is to identify true maniacs quickly and accurately, because they're huge cash cows but don't last long enough for you to get hundreds of hands on them. ... The juiciest ones' stacks are plump, ripe fruit begging to be picked by you. If you wait around for the best 1% of hands or statistical confidence in their PFR numbers, the opportunity will pass you by.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rosencrantz1 · #5 04-20-2005, 03:39 PM

By calling PF you've created two problems for yourself: One, you don't know enough about villain's hand and two, you've encouraged him to be aggressive on the flop by underplaying your strong hand.

I think you should have re-raised 6 PF.

Lakitu · #6 04-20-2005, 10:58 PM

thanks for the feedback. theres so much i have to learn about poker, and i appreciate you guys taking the time to help me. if anyone is curious utg+2 had a pair of 9's and mp3 had ac6c.

IcarusFalling · #7 04-20-2005, 11:34 PM

yea i like to push my jacks to see what im up against.. on the flop i really wouldnt call that.. $3 to 21??? that's a big step.. you can get off easy right then.. or you can gamble.. you gambled.... and that is a REALLY big raise preflop.. situations like these you gotta ask yourself... does he have the QQ, KK, AA?? make your choice and go with it