Top two on a scary board

vhuntd · #1 04-04-2005, 04:09 PM

Should i have folded this? I just called the flop with the intention to raise the turn but it was a really bad card and it got raised before me. Should i have 3 -bet the turn or folded - and should i call the river - the pot was big but i couldn't imagine myself being ahead.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (13 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

davelin · #2 04-04-2005, 04:33 PM

Raise pre-flop, raise flop. I'd call the turn. Torn but perhaps fold the river.

vhuntd · #3 04-04-2005, 04:58 PM

I usually raise in this spot preflop but i was involved in two big pots on other tables and was distracted for a second.
If i raise on the flop then it will only be a value raise because i can't protect my hand against any draws. But raising the turn will be for more value because then i can trap the people in between for two big bets apiece instead of two small ones.

davelin · #4 04-04-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...because i can't protect my hand against any draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you can, why not?

Shillx · #5 04-04-2005, 05:22 PM

If you are going to call on the flop (which I don't agree with) you normally need to fold the turn imo. As I was 1st typing this I didn't see that you had the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and that makes everything very interesting.

Preflop: Raise.

Flop: I like a raise in this spot since I have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Without the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I can see raising and calling as good options with raising being the best one as long as the pot was not totally huge.

Turn: If the action had gone bet-raise-3bet I would probably cap it and then take a free showdown. Since it can still get capped behind you here I don't know if 3-betting is the best option. It probably is though as a) we might have the best hand, b) we might have the best flush draw and c) it will be very hard for anyone to cap it without the nuts. Then should they check to us on the river we check behind unless we fill up or make the flush (we fold to a check/raise or call a bet on the river should we make the flush). That is my plan.

Brad

VBM · #6 04-04-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If i raise on the flop then it will only be a value raise because i can't protect my hand against any draws. But raising the turn will be for more value because then i can trap the people in between for two big bets apiece instead of two small ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right, you can't protect the flop given everyone's already called, so you might as well raise for value; you likely have the best hand. if someone's 4-flushed or has an OESD, you're not likely folding them for 1, 2, 3 or 4 bets. might as well raise for the times that they don't make it and you win.

a flop-raise would've also given you information you otherwise don't have. the way it's played out, you can't tell if MP3 has a made a 2nd pair with the 9, or made a flush or straight. but, if you had raised the flop and you get bet into or check-raised or 3-bet on the turn, it's clear you need to call the raise to fill up on the river and toss it when you don't.

--oj.

Buckmulligan · #7 04-04-2005, 06:44 PM

I would 3 bet if you think it will buy you a showdown, and only call if you are sure that UTG-1 won't 3 bets. Your effective odds here are really awful here, though, which often happens when you slow play improperly. You have to raise the flop.

The pot is still pretty small. Folding is not a problem here.

ArturiusX · #8 04-04-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would 3 bet if you think it will buy you a showdown, and only call if you are sure that UTG-1 won't 3 bets. Your effective odds here are really awful here, though, which often happens when you slow play improperly. You have to raise the flop.

The pot is still pretty small. Folding is not a problem here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding is terrible here, you have Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 10:1 to make your boat on the river beating off any made flushes on the turn. Plus you could be up against a weaker two pair.

You need to continue.

Shillx · #9 04-04-2005, 07:49 PM

The pot is still pretty small. Folding is not a problem here.

This is a good thought (and it was my initial thought as well but since the hero has the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] we must press on and probably take it to a 3rd bet to hopefully freeze the action from any straight or small flush and get ourselves a showdown.

Brad

JC_Saves · #10 04-18-2005, 06:30 PM

(blind response)

You have to reraise this flop to protect your hand. Not raising in this situation is a mistake. You lose an opportunity to learn something about your hand, and maybe knock out some draws, and then on the turn if people were betting into you after you had reraised them on the flop you would definitely know you were beat.

Flop play was bad. Turn play was worse. River play was good.

On the turn you have a bet, and a raise on a 3 flush board