My buddy berated me for this hand.commnts pls on this major suckout - Page 5

TheUsher · #41 04-17-2005, 03:25 AM

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With the stack sizes and blind progression on Party playing this way is extremely hard and I am not sure it is even profitable for someone with great postflop play.

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What levels do you play Freudian? This isn't an attack or anything since I don't know you at all, but in my experiences I'm learning that post-flop play is absolutely crucial when trying to jump up to the 109's/215's and above. Probably even more important is trying to decipher all the available information you have about an opponent in a current hand to define what hand they're on based on bet sizes, etc (or in another sense, how they play post-flop, and pre-flop for that matter). It's fun when it becomes a game within a game within .... when you're playing with regular opponents and playing hands different ways since it'll become a little too obvious after time. I'll be one to admit I've played very mechanically and straight-forward for awhile now but that's changing now. I've been thinking recently that it's more beneficial for me to stick to 4 tables to fully understand and play the game properly so I could move up faster instead of 8tabling (or more) at a lower level while learning absolutely nothing. 4 tables is my comfort zone where I feel I could still play my A game so it's obviously different for everyone.

Edit: Might I add that it's fun when you're up against VERY solid opponents who observe your own play and watching them make some outrageous bluffs on you when they're absolutely sure you'll fold since you've manipulated them to think this. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The above sentence sounded right in my head but it looks weird when written down so I dunno I may just be babbling here...

Freudian · #42 04-17-2005, 03:26 AM

I play 22$. With 1000 starting chips (and perhaps even more importantly a higher level of competition) I can imagine you have to adjust your game quite a bit.

TheUsher · #43 04-17-2005, 03:41 AM

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I play 22$. With 1000 starting chips (and perhaps even more importantly a higher level of competition) I can imagine you have to adjust your game quite a bit.

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Ahh, ok now I know where the original quote came from since you are more restricted at the 22's. Instead of worrying about ROI, everyone should worry if Party ever changes the structure on their SNG's since that would be the end of the world for many people here. This is another reason why instead of just specializing in proper SNG concepts, people should follow adanthar's footsteps and maybe play deep-stacked ring games or play at another site to learn post-flop play... just in case.

It's not a coincidence that the best SNG players here on the forum are also amazing in deep-stacked ring games and/or MTT's.

Freudian · #44 04-17-2005, 03:52 AM

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I play 22$. With 1000 starting chips (and perhaps even more importantly a higher level of competition) I can imagine you have to adjust your game quite a bit.

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Ahh, ok now I know where the original quote came from since you are more restricted at the 22's. Instead of worrying about ROI, everyone should worry if Party ever changes the structure on their SNG's since that would be the end of the world for many people here. This is another reason why instead of just specializing in proper SNG concepts, people should follow adanthar's footsteps and maybe play deep-stacked ring games or play at another site to learn post-flop play... just in case.

It's not a coincidence that the best SNG players here on the forum are also amazing in deep-stacked ring games and/or MTT's.

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Those that has adjusted to the current structure will probably be most likely to adjust to a future structure. As long as there are poor players I don't think anyone should be all that worried.

I think there is a natural evolution of strategies that everyone has to go through when moving up in levels.

J-Lo · #45 04-17-2005, 10:04 AM

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t975)
BB (t800)
UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t730)
MP1 (t790)
MP2 (t835)
MP3 (t710)
Hero (t605)
Button (t770)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, 1 fold, MP1 calls t15, 2 folds, Hero calls t15, 1 fold, SB raises to t150, BB calls t135, UTG calls t135, UTG+1 calls t135, MP1 folds, Hero calls t135.

Flop: (t765) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets t825 (All-In), BB folds, UTG raises to t835 (All-In), UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t455 (All-In).

Turn: (t2880) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: (t2880) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: t2880

Results in white below: 
SB has As Ks (one pair, aces).
UTG has Ah Td (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Jd Kd (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins t2130. UTG wins t750. 

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I think this play is fine and dandy early on, but what if the bubble rolls around, and you are in the same siutation. After making a foolish preflop call, do u also call on the flop?

pokerraja · #46 04-17-2005, 11:54 AM

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t975)
BB (t800)
UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t730)
MP1 (t790)
MP2 (t835)
MP3 (t710)
Hero (t605)
Button (t770)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, 1 fold, MP1 calls t15, 2 folds, Hero calls t15, 1 fold, SB raises to t150, BB calls t135, UTG calls t135, UTG+1 calls t135, MP1 folds, Hero calls t135.

Flop: (t765) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets t825 (All-In), BB folds, UTG raises to t835 (All-In), UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t455 (All-In).

Turn: (t2880) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: (t2880) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: t2880

Results in white below: 
SB has As Ks (one pair, aces).
UTG has Ah Td (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Jd Kd (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins t2130. UTG wins t750. 

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I think this play is fine and dandy early on, but what if the bubble rolls around, and you are in the same siutation. After making a foolish preflop call, do u also call on the flop? [/quot

If I was in the same predicament on the bubble, I would probably still play it the same way. But, it there were 2 similar stack both already AI before action gets to me on the flop, i might fold. It depends on alot of factors. At the same time, I'm not scared to push or call if I have the best of it during the bubble.

jrm · #47 04-17-2005, 01:25 PM

Am I the only one that doesn't like this flop call?

My quick ICM analysis says this:
EV of folding: 0.0625
EV of calling and winning: 0.2008
EV of calling and losing: 0

To make a +EV play, Hero needs to win 31.125% of the time to make this call. That's equivalent to about 7.9 outs. With two all-ins in front of you, it seems hard to believe you've got 4 A's left to draw to. Your Kings are also very questionable outs. You might have 8 outs here, but it's pretty tough to be sure.

I'd play it safe since it's still early.

curtains · #48 04-17-2005, 01:28 PM

It's possible that calling on the flop isn't as obvious as I originally made it sound. I still like calling though.

gasgod · #49 04-17-2005, 01:33 PM

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1. Fold preflop
2. Fold on the flop
3. If you are going to ignore 1 & 2, getting the ace on the river was smart.

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Very well put. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

GG

pokerraja · #50 04-17-2005, 01:34 PM

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Am I the only one that doesn't like this flop call?

My quick ICM analysis says this:
EV of folding: 0.0625
EV of calling and winning: 0.2008
EV of calling and losing: 0

To make a +EV play, Hero needs to win 31.125% of the time to make this call. That's equivalent to about 7.9 outs. With two all-ins in front of you, it seems hard to believe you've got 4 A's left to draw to. Your Kings are also very questionable outs. You might have 8 outs here, but it's pretty tough to be sure.

I'd play it safe since it's still early.

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very interesting analysis. So, is it safe to say that flop call was also incorrect? I'm glad I posted this hand. For someone like me its very educational.