A KK hand, 5/10, help settle a debate...

[AZK]

Fair enough. Not exactly the responses I was expecting, but I guess I can be wrong at times. Ha.

Anyway, I guess what I was getting at is that in this game you have zero folding equity regardless of board, image, cards, etc... these people will go to the felt with almost anything, because of that, I was thinking about waiting till the turn because they are making a bigger mistake then on the flop, even though with only 6 or 750 behind you are basically pot stuck regardless.

How do you play this with 1200 behind?

[creedofhubris]

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How do you play this with 1200 behind?

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I think your plan is better with bigger stacks; wait for the turn to get all-in.

Flop allin for $1200 is such a huge overbet that he's gonna fold the hands you beat (except maybe QQ).

[NotAClue]

If hero check calls the flop, there will be ~ 550 in the pot on the turn.

Waiting till the turn makes it virtually impossible for your opponent to make a mistake, and greatly increases the chances of the hero making a mistake:

1. pushing with a loser,
2. folding a winner,
3. checking and giving opponent a free card.

The flop is the only place a decent-to-good opponent is going to make a mistake.

As the stack sizes increase, the question becomes considerably tougher to answer without reads on the hero, villain, and the history between hero/table, villain/table, and hero/villain.

[tpir90036]

I have never really understood big check-raises in NL with one pair type of hands. Maybe I am giving standard loose opponents way too much credit... but if the opponent knows you are tight it seems like you are not getting called unless you are beat... and you are not bluffing. So what are we doing? Risking our entire stack to shut him out of the last two cards?

I don't think that Hero played the hand badly per se.... but I don't quite know if this is the best line either. I would love to hear what some of the regular posters have to say about this hand.

[GFunk911]

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Fair enough. Not exactly the responses I was expecting, but I guess I can be wrong at times. Ha.

Anyway, I guess what I was getting at is that in this game you have zero folding equity regardless of board, image, cards, etc... these people will go to the felt with almost anything, because of that, I was thinking about waiting till the turn because they are making a bigger mistake then on the flop, even though with only 6 or 750 behind you are basically pot stuck regardless.

How do you play this with 1200 behind?

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I don't get it. If the opponent is gonna call anything, then what's the difference between pushing the flop or turn? Yes, the villian's "mistake" may be worse on the turn, but the EV is the same. If you're saying don't push on a non-brick turn, well 1/2 the deck is non-brick, if you have gamb00ling opponents who will call anything, it seems like not pushing on a non-brick turn is drastically -EV. Where's the EV difference between pushing the flop and turn?

[soah]

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I was thinking about waiting till the turn because they are making a bigger mistake then on the flop

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And if Hero checks and folds with the best hand because a scare card comes on the turn, then Hero is making a huge mistake.

[Dr. Strangelove]

1. This isn't a big check raise if hero is starting with only 600.
2. At some point, you've gotten all the value out of worse hands that you are going to get, so you'd rather end the hand than give two free cards to hands that aren't going to put any more money in unless they draw out. When the stacks are small, as in this case, and the pot relatively large, ending the hand immediately (when you happen to be ahead) is more important than limiting the amount you put in when you are behind. As stacks get larger pot size control becomes more important than simply ending the hand.

[TonyBlair]

KK is a beast here and you want to get your money in while you're winning. In many circumstances, such as when you know when your opponent is going to fire at you if you check, the CR is the perfect option. Particularly with these stack sizes and the current pot size.

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So what are we doing? Risking our entire stack to shut him out of the last two cards?

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If the opponent is loose he's going to call with a load of made hands that are beaten here. He'll call with some draws too, which is fine, so CRing KK is not an attempt to shut him out even though it may have that effect.
If he's hit a big hand then you lose but are you really going to get away from it anyway with these stacks? Only if you're weak or a champion, in my opinion.

[mgsimpleton]

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And if Hero checks and folds with the best hand because a scare card comes on the turn, then Hero is making a huge mistake.

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[mgsimpleton]

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And if Hero checks and folds with the best hand because a scare card comes on the turn, then Hero is making a huge mistake.

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and lots of people overplay their TPTK hands here even when the scare card comes but they don't realize it (we're not talking good players here). lots of good players will recognize with the call that hero has an overpair and push him off it with a scare card. you have to assume you are best here... if he flopped a set so be it but you are beating pretty much everything else, so good play.