Fundamentally Misplayed 76s?

DavidC · #1 04-15-2005, 07:21 AM

My thoughts:
-The limp was fine
-The raise was slightly bigger than the pot
-Since I'm going to hit a four-flush 1/8 times, I figured I had fine odds to call.
-However, this isn't good because the action on the flop is going to be heavy, and therefore I won't be able to draw to my flush or straight

Unfortunately no reads on the players yet.

Do you guys agree that this raise was too large for me to call?

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

BB ($33.95)
UTG ($50.86)
UTG+1 ($14.5)
MP1 ($56.72)
MP2 ($62)
MP3 ($58.35)
Hero ($49.25)
Button ($55.85)
SB ($49.5)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, SB (poster) raises to $2.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.50, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2.50, Button calls $2.50.

Flop: ($13.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $13, UTG folds, Hero folds, Button raises to $30, SB calls $33.50 (All-In), Button calls $16.50.

Turn: ($106.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($106.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $106.50

FlipPoker · #2 04-15-2005, 08:23 AM

I've seen people make this play lots of times. The preflop raiser is UTG, so he probably has a strong hand (high pair or AK. I'll sometimes call a raise with suited connectors preflop because there's a good chance that I'll get action if I flop a big hand. Plus, if I hit the flop with SCs, it usually means that it missed the other players.

But I don't call raises with SCs all the time. I try to play them in late position, cheap, and with lots of players.

zaxx19 · #3 04-15-2005, 08:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
-However, this isn't good because the action on the flop is going to be heavy, and therefore I won't be able to draw to my flush or straight

[/ QUOTE ]

The more important problem is that on the flop a semi bluff will probably be pretty useless(unfortunately from what ive seen of players on this board they dont really semibluff just call and draw..).....unless all three players whiff hard.

Tip your cap because the guy raised just enough to get a good player out of the hand with 67s unless it is the loosest and wildest of games where implied odds are humongous.

djoyce003 · #4 04-15-2005, 10:03 AM

you are at right about the 5% rule so the call is fine albeit marginal.

IRV · #5 04-15-2005, 10:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts:
-The limp was fine
-The raise was slightly bigger than the pot
-Since I'm going to hit a four-flush 1/8 times, I figured I had fine odds to call.
-However, this isn't good because the action on the flop is going to be heavy, and therefore I won't be able to draw to my flush or straight

Unfortunately no reads on the players yet.

Do you guys agree that this raise was too large for me to call?

---

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

BB ($33.95)
UTG ($50.86)
UTG+1 ($14.5)
MP1 ($56.72)
MP2 ($62)
MP3 ($58.35)
Hero ($49.25)
Button ($55.85)
SB ($49.5)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, SB (poster) raises to $2.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.50, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2.50, Button calls $2.50.

Flop: ($13.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $13, UTG folds, Hero folds, Button raises to $30, SB calls $33.50 (All-In), Button calls $16.50.

Turn: ($106.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($106.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $106.50

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it is player dependent but I believe it was too high of a raise to call and as u mentioned already... you probably won't be drawing cheap. Sometimes, I'll reraise with a hand like this preflop depending on the player and my reads on him/her.

DavidC · #6 04-15-2005, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you are at right about the 5% rule so the call is fine albeit marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I've been thinking about this a bit.

The odds of me hitting 2 pair are about 2.5% right? I'm not so sure on that, so if anyone can correct me that would be awesome.

I would really hate to call a pot-sized bet on this flop unless the other two guys called too. I also wouldsn't want to minraise for the free card, because if he's really got something I'm liable to be re-raised pushed, and at that point, I must call.

The pot size is such that TPTK / OP hands are really powerful.

Because of this, I would be better off having a pair in this situation than a hand that needs to be defined on the turn or river.

Re: the 5/10 rule... I'm just remembering this right now.

It was 6% of my stack, and between 5-10 you use your judgement right? Additionally, the guys that wrote the 5/10 rule played in seat fee games, whereas here it's a 5% rake max $3, right? That could cut into my implied odds a bit...

I MIGHT be able to get away with this call. I was new to the NLHE 50 level so I just saw $3 as a "big raise" instead of 6xbb. I suppose it's not horribly big. Ideally I'd want to have $100-$120 at stake before making this call though.

--Dave.

DavidC · #7 04-15-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts:
-The limp was fine
-The raise was slightly bigger than the pot
-Since I'm going to hit a four-flush 1/8 times, I figured I had fine odds to call.
-However, this isn't good because the action on the flop is going to be heavy, and therefore I won't be able to draw to my flush or straight

Unfortunately no reads on the players yet.

Do you guys agree that this raise was too large for me to call?

---

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

BB ($33.95)
UTG ($50.86)
UTG+1 ($14.5)
MP1 ($56.72)
MP2 ($62)
MP3 ($58.35)
Hero ($49.25)
Button ($55.85)
SB ($49.5)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, SB (poster) raises to $2.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.50, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2.50, Button calls $2.50.

Flop: ($13.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $13, UTG folds, Hero folds, Button raises to $30, SB calls $33.50 (All-In), Button calls $16.50.

Turn: ($106.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($106.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $106.50

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it is player dependent but I believe it was too high of a raise to call and as u mentioned already... you probably won't be drawing cheap. Sometimes, I'll reraise with a hand like this preflop depending on the player and my reads on him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

PFRR is an interesting idea. It could cause a tricky player to just call and check to you on the flop with aces. That would be a HUGE advantage.

However, if he's got queens he's going to call and then blast the pot on the flop (and it's going to be a larger bet), and with aces, he may get greedy and try to get most of your stack in the middle.

It's tough to say, but I like the line of thought here, and if it works, it'll work really well.

Thanks for pointing that out.

The problem is that if you minraise he's going to blast you because it looks like a big hand, and if you don't minraise it'll be a very high initial investment for the hand: I've only got $50 at stake here so I can't aford to pay any more than $6 for the hand (BUT $6 to the turn is a much better investment for me than $3 to the flop, I think).

Due to the stack sizes, the number of players, and the pot size, I also don't think that I'm going to be able to represent a set successfully in this hand: the pot will get to big too fast and he'll just call.

--Dave.

edge · #8 04-15-2005, 05:17 PM

Reraising preflop is a terrible idea. Who limps behind 4 limpers with AA/KK in CO? No one is going to believe you, and you'll inflate the pot, and your opponent will force you out.