Question about Extracting Value

[tech]

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I guess what I don't understand here is that you aren't last to act unless the PFR opens after your check (assuming you've missed the flop).

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You are right ... I meant my comment more in general, as opposed to the play of this specific hand.

[Rosencrantz1]

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I guess what I don't understand here is that you aren't last to act unless the PFR opens after your check (assuming you've missed the flop).

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You are right ... I meant my comment more in general, as opposed to the play of this specific hand.

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Right. Which is why what concerned me initially about the 2s was the position. If I was CO or on the button with them, I would be much more likely to call the raise PF (based on OP's scenario)

[Phil Van Sexton]

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Well, based on the other posts I would say it's based simply on the 6:1 you're getting on the initial call.

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This is not the reason. If it were folded to SB and he raised to 70 with AA, I'd still call. In that case, you are only getting 2.5:1 on the call.

In NL with reasonably sized stacks, implied odds are much more important than pot odds. MP2 has 740 in his stack. You want his whole stack.

Calling costs you about 5% of your stack. You'll flop a set about 12% of the time (8:1).

As the blinds get bigger, pot odds become more important, but in side games or levels 1 + 2, you should be thinking about implied odds.

[Rosencrantz1]

I'm not sure I follow...would you mind either

1) Explaining more thoroughly
2) Referring me to a thread on implied odds in NL

Thanks. (Not trying to be difficult; just trying to improve)

[Unparagoned]

Well, this is my opinion, but it sounds basically like what Phil is talking about...one of the big ways of making chips early in these tournaments is to outflop a big hand. So, AA v. 22. I risk 70 chips with the knowledge that if I hit my set, I am probably taking AA's whole stack. If I miss, it's really easy to just let the hand go and wait for the next two cards I decide to play. I tend to notice that those places where I pick up chips early involve 1) me outflopping a good hand, 2) my premium hand running into a slightly worse premium hand or 3) just straight-up bad play on the part of the opposition (e.g. opponent with AT plays it like AK on the A high flop, and I actually have AK).

But yeah, you want to look for situations where you can potentially win quite a bit without putting much of your stack at risk, i.e. implied odds.

[Unparagoned]

Why lead into the pre-flop raiser here? I would never raise to 70 pf in her position, but if I did, I would probably be continuing post-flop. What is your plan for the rest of the hand?

[RobGW]

You have good position pre flop because you are closing the action. There can be no raise behind you. If you were in the CO you would have to worry about button and the blinds reraising which would be terrible for 22. But since you are in the BB, you are closing the action. You know for sure that you are getting 6:1 odds and that its only going to cost you another $40. You aren't calling this because 22 is the best hand. You aren't going to try to steal a pot here. You are simply trying to hit a set. If you miss then fold it. If you hit you can take raisers stack if he has AA or some otherwise good hand. You are risking $40 to possibly double through. This is great implied odds for you.

[Unparagoned]

Well, part of my reason for just calling on the turn was the fact that I thought there was a reasonable chance the pre-flop raiser might actually have a big pair. The way she had played it reminded me of the way certain sorts of players like to play strong hands. That is, small raise to try to get lots of people in and build a pot, followed by a small bet on the flop they like to again, try to keep opponents in. If it was the case that MP had some sort of big pair, I wanted to give her the chance to raise. But, I am inclined to think that I was probably wrong there and if she's the sort of player I was thinking she might be, she could just as easily come along with my raise as raise herself in that situation.

[Unparagoned]

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i think u raise to 300 and pot commit anyone who wants to come along for the ride... there are still a few cards that u cannot bet on the river...


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Which cards are you scared of? Is it only having the board pair again or do you have something else in mind?

[Unarmed]

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Why lead into the pre-flop raiser here? I would never raise to 70 pf in her position, but if I did, I would probably be continuing post-flop. What is your plan for the rest of the hand?

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Assume PF raiser has an overpair. You want to pot commit her so you can stack her off. If you lead, she will raise. Bingo, you've accomplished your goal.

Now contrast that to the typical line most players take with 22. Check/call. Check/call. Push. You're letting overpairs get away far too easy here, not to mention the times they have JJ/QQ/KK and an overcard drops.

And just generally, slowplaying sucks