Can you lay this boat down? Party 1000 NL

[arkose]

the entire situation is player dependent...i've won some huge pots at B&M with 67o, T9o, etc against aces; i was willing to call a preflop raise because the stacks were deep enough and i knew i could get a lot/all of the player's stack if i hit

Ciaffone's PL/NL book has a good section about facing raises with suited connectors and small PP to try and bust a big pair....now granted, suited connectors are better than unsuited, but the logic still applies.....their strategy is to call if the raise amount is less than 5% of the lowest stack involved (fold if its >10% and use judgement if inbetween 5-10%)

in this hand, the raise amount is only another $23 with about $48 in the pot, and the stacks are quite large...plus you get the pot HU, and perhaps you can win the pot on scary boards a small amount of the time (when you completely miss)....i think the preflop call is fine

[pzhon]

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the entire situation is player dependent...i've won some huge pots at B&M with 67o, T9o, etc against aces; i was willing to call a preflop raise because the stacks were deep enough and i knew i could get a lot/all of the player's stack if i hit

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If someone will get stacked with one pair, there are much easier ways to get their money than by playing 87o out of position.

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Ciaffone's PL/NL book has a good section about facing raises with suited connectors and small PP to try and bust a big pair....

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You are misremembering that section if you think it advocates a call here with an offsuit connector, out of position.

<ul type="square">p. 66: Remember this important principle of big-bet hold'em: a drawing hand needs good position throughout the deal; a set needs good position only on the flop... Therefore, play connectors in a raised pot only in back position.[/list]Elsewhere, Ciaffone says the following:

<ul type="square">p. 29: Up front with deep money, you must play "pair poker" for your starting hands. The top players are strong about not building a draw up front out-of-position... If you are a hold'em player and pick up a J-10 suited or an 8-7 suited, it is more likely that you will flop a draw rather than a made hand. Muck those hands up front, especially when the money is deep.[/list]The bold sentence can be interpreted in more than one way. It is clear that Ciaffone doesn't feel suited connectors are worth much in early position.

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now granted, suited connectors are better than unsuited,


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A suited connector is much more likely to outflop a high pair/overcards, or to flop a big enough draw to be worth continuing or semi-bluffing. Suitedness will only be the difference between winning or losing in a few pots, but those pots will often be large.

You need much greater implied odds with an offsuit connector than you do with a suited connector. You'll hit much less frequently, and if you need to draw, you usually have a smaller, more expensive draw. The result is that you may need your opponent to pay off an extra 1/2 pot bet just to do as well as with a suited connector.

Unless you would play 87s every time, fold 87o every time.

[arkose]

i'm not denying anything you are saying...and yes, against the types of players willing to back their pair with their entire stack, there are a variety of ways to take their money...and 87o *can* be one of them

i'm not condoning playing 87o everytime or limping with it in EP...in this situation, he is in the BB and acts last and knows he will be HU...which is better than being multiway with this hand

i'm not agreeing with richie's logic either of looking at twodimes and playing 87o because of that...those odds are for all-in situations, and you aren't going all-in if you flop one pair or a gutshot, etc

all i am saying is that there can be a time and a place to take a shot against someone with a hand like 87o...imo

[pzhon]

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all i am saying is that there can be a time and a place to take a shot against someone with a hand like 87o...imo

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The 5-10 rule does not apply to 87o, and it certainly doesn't apply to 87o out of position. 87o is much weaker than 87s.

I don't think it is ever right to call a tight player's substantial raise with 87o, out of position, unless you can count on your opponent to misplay badly. There doesn't have to be a substitute for the 5-10 rule. If the stacks are very deep, you can't count on someone with AA giving you everything when you hit, so you may not be able to call correctly for 0.1% of your stack.