Textbook Flop Raise?

RacersEdge · #1 04-14-2005, 01:54 AM

Live 3/6 game..
5 limpers (BB, MP1, MP2, MP3, Button) PF..
Hero is MP1 with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, Hero..

Is this a definite raise here?

Shillx · #2 04-14-2005, 01:57 AM

Why did you open limp in MP1 with KJo?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Yeah I would raise this flop.

Brad

mtdoak · #3 04-14-2005, 02:01 AM

It depends on the BB, the field behind you, and a few other factors. Its doubtful your going to get a 10 to fold, but if you can get a K to fold, you may save yourself half a pot if a 10 falls. It also would put someonew with AJ is a bad spot. So yes, raise. However, unless the game is loose (most live 3/6 games are, however), be wary of playing KJ in mid position.

RacersEdge · #4 04-14-2005, 02:03 AM

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Why did you open limp in MP1 with KJo??

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm..I might not have been the first to bet PF. I can never remember these live hands exactly... [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

jclin · #5 04-14-2005, 02:06 AM

Will they fold AJ/KQ? Raise for sure. Are they more liable to CC A8 or things similar to it? Raise is good. Is BB a strong player, but will possibly fold/or check the turn so you get a free card? Raise is good. If bettor is liable to make a 3-bet with any type of hand, then calling is much better. But, without any reads, I would definitely go for the raise.

If you raise, will you fold to 3-bet? No, because you'll still get pot odds, as a T is probably good enough for chop.

Another thing to ask is this: if you raise, and bettor just calls (and everyone else folds), what do you do on turn? If it's a blank, I probably bet the turn and go for free showdown on river.

Another way to look at this hand is if you had JTs in the same position. What would you do?

Onaflag · #6 04-14-2005, 02:15 AM

If you want the three players out behind you, then yes, a raise "may" get you heads up with BB. Being a live game, though, I would tend to believe given the absence of reads, that someone will cold call that behind you. What will you do against a reraise?

So......if the raise won't greatly narrow the field, which in this case, we probably don't want anyway, but will only bring maybe one other player along, why do it? It screws up your drawing odds.

You desperately need a T (4 outs) or a J (2 outs). I think a K will hurt you more than help. So with 6 maybe 7 outs, and an obvious drawing hand, wouldn't calling make more sense?

I vote "call" so as not to scare the others away because you want them in if you hit your hand. You're relying on implied odds, though. Are you confident they'll come along for the ride if you call?

Enough babbling. I don't think a raise is correct here and I wouldn't fold unless I had reason to believe the people behind me were drooling to jam the pot. Let the bashing begin.

Onaflag...........

RacersEdge · #7 04-14-2005, 02:29 AM

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I vote "call" so as not to scare the others away because you want them in if you hit your hand

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That was the line I took - bring everyone along for when I make my hand.

As far as reads go though, the BB was kind of an aggressive loose player and his betting does not mean Q for sure - could be J or 9. So with that, I'm wishing I had raised - which I think would have wiped out all those behind me - and I would have found out if BB had the Q or not.

jclin · #8 04-14-2005, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I vote "call" so as not to scare the others away because you want them in if you hit your hand

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the line I took - bring everyone along for when I make my hand.

As far as reads go though, the BB was kind of an aggressive loose player and his betting does not mean Q for sure - could be J or 9. So with that, I'm wishing I had raised - which I think would have wiped out all those behind me - and I would have found out if BB had the Q or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you just answered your dilemma. You're not going to hit that T very often...you must win with the jack. Raise.

Onaflag · #9 04-14-2005, 02:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you just answered your dilemma. You're not going to hit that T very often...you must win with the jack. Raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 4 Tens left in the deck. There are 2 Jacks left in the deck.

Which one will come out of the deck more often?

There may still be time to edit your response.

Onaflag.............

jclin · #10 04-14-2005, 02:58 AM

In your other post, you mention that you 'desperately' need help with either a T or J. How confident are you in that? Will the bettor only bet out a Q? That is the better question to ask. If the bettor is so tight where Q is only thing being bet, then call is the answer. But with no read, raise is so much better. Bettor could have JT, a T, or KJ too.

Ok, let's say you call. What if bettor keeps going at it on turn and river if they are blanks without any reads? Crying call? That would not be good play.