PLO/8 Newbie Hand

[Ribbo]

Because if someone has a better hand than you, you want to find out now, and not on a flop of 378. If you do not raise A2 suited then you lose a lot of value from all the chumps who are happy calling a raise preflop with A3 and in this case 2445. You lose a LOT more value by not raising, than you ever would from people with AAxx reraising and you folding. The biggest mistakes in Pot limit omaha/8 are ALWAYS made preflop in the long term.
A perfect example of this would be this hand I posted on my website http://www.ribbo.com/omaha7.htm . I raise with the worst hand from 3 people who see a flop, but if I don't raise then I can't raise with A2 either. And if I don't raise A2, then I am only raising AA. And if I am only raising AA, then everyone else will fold to the rock garden in seat 3 who has only raising 1 hand all hour.

[MarkyMark]

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Because if someone has a better hand than you, you want to find out now, and not on a flop of 378.

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this assumes you are always getting raised by people having a better hand than you. But a better hand (low protection, no defect, Ace suited) may only call, so you are not necessarily gaining information.

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The biggest mistakes in Pot limit omaha/8 are ALWAYS made preflop in the long term.

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Hmm hmm. Always is a very strong word here. The biggest mistakes are a combination of bad PF-play and making bad decisions on the turn. If someone has a strong post-flop game, he can allow for some mistakes pre-flop.

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A perfect example of this would be this hand I posted on my website http://www.ribbo.com/omaha7.htm.

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One sentence struck me when I was reading this hand you posted: [ QUOTE ]
Lastly I reraise the pot, because I have nut low with protection, nut high, plus a second nut flush draw which is likely good if it hits. Yes we know now the ace is out there, but as I played the hand out, I couldn't assume that.

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The nut flush draw is alot more often out there in PLO8 than in PLO, cause it mostly takes only another 2 or 3 or even only a 4 suited with that Ace to make people play the hand. Going full throttle with a nut low with protection and K-high flush with multiway action is a matter of taste and table composition. I would often think of my K-high flush draw of being non-existant... and I am often right. The hand you posted is really interesting as it was entirely possible that you would chase out worse hands with your raise and would play against someone who could freeroll for high against you. Don´t like that play at all.

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I raise with the worst hand from 3 people who see a flop, but if I don't raise then I can't raise with A2 either. And if I don't raise A2, then I am only raising AA. And if I am only raising AA, then everyone else will fold to the rock garden in seat 3 who has only raising 1 hand all hour.

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I don´t know if this holds true. I do alot of raising with High-only cards since I know some players will make that crying call on the turn chasing their low. Again, by raising A2sXX, you are only increasing stakes in my opinion and exposing yourself on later rounds if done out of position.

[Ribbo]

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The nut flush draw is alot more often out there in PLO8 than in PLO, cause it mostly takes only another 2 or 3 or even only a 4 suited with that Ace to make people play the hand. Going full throttle with a nut low with protection and K-high flush with multiway action is a matter of taste and table composition. I would often think of my K-high flush draw of being non-existant... and I am often right. The hand you posted is really interesting as it was entirely possible that you would chase out worse hands with your raise and would play against someone who could freeroll for high against you. Don´t like that play at all.

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Firstly he isn't freerolling me for high if I have a nut high on the flop [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] and secondly I do not believe you understand how often the ace high flush draw is in play when you hold a king high flush draw. There are 48 cards apart from yours of which 36 are dealt out. So that's a 75% that the ace got dealt preflop. The chance of that Ace being suited given that you have a suited king in your hand is 55%. So the chance of the suited ace being DEALT to someone is 41%, the chance of it being played reduces this even further. I would say at an absolute maximum its a 33% chance someone has a suited ace high flush when you bet a hand with a suited king high flush draw. Also that player MUST have a 3 to go with his hand to even consider chasing the flush. When we take all this into consideration betting A3 for low plus a king high flush draw in omaha/8 is absolutely correct, before we even factor in your other 2 cards which in this case includes a 4 for a 6 high straight on the flop. Hope that helps you understand the mindset you need for winning.

[MarkyMark]

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I would say at an absolute maximum its a 33% chance someone has a suited ace high flush when you bet a hand with a suited king high flush draw.

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There are 2 ways how to judge wether the nut flush draw is out there. You can calculate it or you can calculate it AND look at the action. And the action tells me someone really, really likes his hand. I still don´t understand the raise on the flop. Like you said, cottontail should have folded with just the nut low, but it´s really rare to see someone laying down the nut low at a PP $100 table. I´d rather be a 51% favorite 3-way than a 60% fav HU. And given the risk that by driving out Cotton you are indeed making it heads up again the nut flush, then the raise makes even less sense. It´s only the best move when your opponents hold exactly the cards as they did in this hand and Cotton is able to fold the nut low....

Then again regarding your statement about the biggest mistakes being made pre-flop. But isn´t Cotton in your hand a good example that the biggest mistake is made on flop/turn? Also is you raising with the worst hand pre-flop a mistake on your part by your definition?

and also pls comment on what I wrote here cause it interests me:

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Quote:

Because if someone has a better hand than you, you want to find out now, and not on a flop of 378.

this assumes you are always getting raised by people having a better hand than you. But a better hand (low protection, no defect, Ace suited) may only call, so you are not necessarily gaining information.

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Isn´t that exactly what Try_Me did? Smooth-call you with a better hand?

If I don´t have the mindset of a winner, then I must have the mindset of a winning loser ;-)

Edit: And if you make this much money, please pay some guy in Russia 300 bucks to make your site don´t like like it´s 1994 and I´m using CompuServe´s Mosaic browser :-)

[Ribbo]

The reason Try_Me called my bet is he can't reraise me. We have played together for a number of years online in various games and he knows I have a playable hand from a range of possible starters. He cannot reraise me from the blinds with that hand because he cannot call me if I reraise the pot as he would then know i have AA plus low at the very least. Also he wants a third player in the pot as his hand improves preflop the more callers he gets.
So far as the flop goes. I will shove that everytime given the make up of the game, because on Party Poker, people just dont fold. Maybe on Stars or Ultimate Bet someone would fold nut low no high in this instance.