KK on a favorable flop with unfavorable action?

jek187 · #1 02-20-2003, 08:55 AM

Very loose moderately agressive 3/6 online game. The player UTG in this hand seems to be the only other decent player at the table.

UTG opens with a raise. UTG+1 cold calls. Folded to me in MP. I have K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] and reraise. Folded to the SB who calls, as do the 2 EP players.

Flop comes: T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
It's checked to me, and I bet. SB check-riases, UTG makes it 3 bets, and UTG+1 cold calls. What is your play here?

Results to follow.

JackAce · #2 02-20-2003, 10:24 AM

I´d fold my Kings if I were you.

You might very well have SB beaten, SB has most likely got A-10 or something similar or possibly a two pair.

UTG on the other hand has for sure got a set, atleast thats what I would have put him on if he was a good player, probably top set since he wouldnt raise with a worse hand then 10-10 UTG.

UTG+1 most likely has a flushdraw, or possibly a straightdraw.

If my assumptions are correct you are in a very bad situation where you also risk to draw dead if you make your set (spade of kings might give UTG+1 a flush). You are not likely to win the pot, but very likely to loose lots of bets no matter if you make your set or not so I'd say FOLD.

lil' · #3 02-20-2003, 10:30 AM

This is a tough one for me to figure out, probably because I have a hard time laying kings down when I need to.

With that flop & that betting action I would guess that you are looking at some pretty strong hole cards from your opponents. A-A and 10-10 kill you, but you beat all other strong hole cards. Is this enough of a reason to fold? In a loose-aggressive game, I don't think so. If you cap the flop, it might slow things down on the turn. If a spade or ace comes on the turn I would be very wary, but if a brick falls you can bet, and probably fold to another raise.

I dunno, I will be interested to hear what other people have to say.

techsan · #4 02-20-2003, 12:56 PM

I'd say fold. It seemed that UTG was planning on check-raising himself on the flop and since he was the PFR I would put him on an overpair or TT. I'm not sure if TT is as likely as an overpair here though. I'd put him on something like QQ since he didn't reraise you preflop. I'd say SB has top set and UTG+1 is on the spade flush draw, probably with at least one high spade, maybe two, something like QsJs or KsQs. You have two outs basically to improve to a set, one of which (as an above poster pointed out) is Ks which would put 3 flush cards out there and could make UTG+1 very happy, so you probably have 1 clean out to improve to trips on the turn and no backdoor possibilities which doesn't seem worth pursuing with the amount of $ in the pot, IMHO.

KDF · #5 02-20-2003, 02:01 PM

UTG check raising a check raiser smells like a set.

My read without knowing player details:
SB- ATo (or different suit than spades)
UTG- TT or 77
UTG + 1 Ace-bigXsooted (spades)

I think your cowboys are dead with only 1 clean out ( I hate this spot!)

I vote fold.

JTG51 · #6 02-20-2003, 02:19 PM

I'll play devils advocate here since everyone else wants you to fold.

Couldn't the SB have a T with a good kicker, and UTG have QQ or JJ? Look at what a great play he made if he has one of those hands. He's got everyone else folding a hand that has him drawing almost dead, and giving him the pot.

I would play QQ or JJ that way at least some of the time, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he would also.

Cap it.

Lars Vegas · #7 02-20-2003, 02:27 PM

With the cap at four bets, it's a fine opportunity to invest 1.5 more big bet into this pot (it's sure as heck should beat the stomach feeling you sometimes have when investing that one last bet into the pot on the river).

The cap is actually a fine tool here, buying you very cheap information (being able to raise without ever having to think about facing another raise!).

What will SB do? A cap could force him out which is good news. Also, if you are lead into the turn, this is BAD news, not matter what turn card.

If a blank comes off on the turn (only about half the deck will be relative blanks though), you may still be ahead. The flop is somewhat co-ordinated (though outside the common playing-zone), so you could easily be facing two draws here and just a Ten or an overpair as the best made hand.

But it's very close. I am sure Sklansky would rate the options here as 7,7,6 or something.

lars

PokerPrince · #8 02-20-2003, 08:18 PM

CAP IT! Surely either of those players would wait until the turn to pop it up if they held a set so there's a decent chance you're ahead. SB could simply have checkraised a 10 with a good kicker. The reraiser may be holding JJ or QQ and was going for a flop checkraise as well. I like the cap here.

PokerPrince

Clarkmeister · #9 02-20-2003, 10:30 PM

I don't know what the other posters are thinking, but if there is a set out there, it most certainly isn't held by the SB or UTG. Why would either of them play a set like this on a relatively nothing board. The only person I'm worried about having a set is UTG1 who coldcalled, but obviously flush draw or 89 is more likely than a set.

SB has promised nothing more than a pair. Your 3 bet could easily be AK and he's trying to leverage you with a pair, probabaly something like AT, JT or even 88, 99 or JJ. UTG is making a great play with the same basic range of hands. If I was UTG I would never ever 3 bet here with a set. Can you see why? OTOH I would 3 bet every time with AT, JJ and QQ trying desperately to blow the preflop 3 bettor out of the pot and leave me headsup with a likely very badly beaten SB.

If I were you, I would call and raise the turn unless UTG+1 springs to life.

jek187 · #10 02-21-2003, 03:17 AM

I mucked. The SB called, and the turn was the A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . The SB checked, UTG bet all-in*, and both UTG+1 and the SB called. River was the 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . It gets checked down. SB turns over 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] and UTG+1 mucks. UTG's hand gets turned over, Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] .

I thank you all for your imput, and definately don't feel bad about coming to my decision given the short amount of time I had to think about it. I have now updated UTG's notes to reflect that he does get overly agressive from time to time. Coming into this hand, I had yet to see him do anything I wouldn't.

I must say that in hindsight, and after a day of thinking about the hand, I should've capped it on the flop and then made a clearer decision on the turn depending on if I get bet into or a spade (or possibly a 6 or J) falls.

* I didn't mention the UTG player being short stacked because at the time I didn't notice either. I realize that given UTG being short stacked, I may want to stick around and build a sidepot with the other 2 players.