Playing A,K from early position with no respect!

Double Play · #1 02-19-2003, 12:58 AM

I'm sure this has been debated before, but I've been forced to think about it quite a bit lately, so I'd like people's general philosophy. I'm very interested in how others play A,K UTG or UTG +1 when you don't hit the flop. I've had this hand beaten quite a bit lately and I'm wondering if I should change gears a bit. I usually play in a 15-30 or 9-18 game in Northern California.

Example: I'm UTG +1 with A,K and it's folded to me. I raise and get two callers from medium/late position as well as the BB. We see it 4-handed and the flop comes 2,5,9 rainbow. The BB checks, I bet, and only one late position player calls. It's now Heads Up and the Turn comes with a 10 of the fourth suit. The board is now 2,5,9,10. I bet and get called. The River comes with a 7, and reads 2,5,9,10,7. I bet and get called. I turn over my A,K and am beaten by pocket 8's.

In the somewhat loose 15-30 game I play, A,X will call one bet, and often will either pair his kicker for top hand or wind up with two pair if the A comes on the end. But medium pairs will also call to see if they can make a Set. I raise to try and weed out these hands. A bet on the Flop is obviously mandatory. But A lot of the players I play against will not raise with their medium pairs. If you have them beaten with an overpair they will pay you off, but they will see the River. So, what are your thoughts on River play? I think my odds of hitting either an A or K on the Turn and River are about 1 in 4. If I don't hit a pair by the River, what do you think about checking or check-calling here? It seems counter-intuitive to check here. You want to represent a Set or an overpair and have them fold. But if the read I have on the players is correct, and I think it is, then I'm probably going to save a bet by just showing the hand down.

Thanks all!

mike l. · #2 02-19-2003, 01:21 AM

i think your mistake is in thinking that you have to bet the flop and usually the turn and the river as well.

just raise preflop, see if you hit the flop, maybe shoot a bet in on the flop to get the complete riff raff out, and then give up on the turn if you havent paired up. this is just the early position plan keep in mind. if in later position you can consider making that extra turn bet as well.

one other thing to do would be to raise with more playable hands from early position so your play becomes less predictable and they dont automatically put you on AK. of course this can become expensive if the rest of your game does not enable you to play well post flop, i dont know. nevertheless knowing the limits and area youre playing in i dont think youll nicked too badly if youre a winning player and have a reasonable bankroll.

astroglide · #3 02-19-2003, 01:33 AM

"Example: I'm UTG +1 with A,K and it's folded to me. I raise and get two callers from medium/late position as well as the BB. We see it 4-handed and the flop comes 2,5,9 rainbow. The BB checks, I bet, and only one late position player calls. It's now Heads Up and the Turn comes with a 10 of the fourth suit. The board is now 2,5,9,10. I bet and get called. The River comes with a 7, and reads 2,5,9,10,7. I bet and get called. I turn over my A,K and am beaten by pocket 8's."

were you honestly expecting him to call on the river with a worse hand, or fold a better one? i don't think you thought that one through enough, and if it's indicative of your general tendencies, you need to give more consideration to what exactly is going on outside of the scope of your 2 cards and how they fit in with the flop.

Dynasty · #4 02-19-2003, 02:08 AM

were you honestly expecting him to call on the river with a worse hand, or fold a better one?

I know I've won several pots by betting my unimproved AK all the way through on an uncoordinated board and getting an opponent to fold a better hand. I suspect they are usually calling with middle or bottom pair hoping to hit their presumed 5-outer.

astroglide · #5 02-19-2003, 02:10 AM

i know i've won several pots that way too, against very specific opponents in very specific situations. i think in general (what this guy is talking about) betting ak unimproved on the river is a way to lose money fast.

gaylord focker · #6 02-19-2003, 03:42 AM

You should think about what astroglide said in his first post. Are you expecting a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold? It seems impossible a worse hand calls here, and it seems very unlikely anyone would fold a better hand with that board. I would be more inclined to bet with a busted draw that had a chance of folding ace high, than I would your AK. The better you get at reading hands the more comfortable you will become in thee situations. Until then, I would take it easy on the turn in spots like this when out of position.

Tommy Angelo · #7 02-19-2003, 06:17 AM

"just raise preflop, see if you hit the flop, maybe shoot a bet in on the flop to get the complete riff raff out, and then give up on the turn if you havent paired up."

I think that's a good idea. My rule of thumb is with two players behind, I'll rarely even do the probe bet. I'll just check and fold on the flop. I know it might sound too wimpy, but the way it works out, and the way if feels out, is that I'm playing $40-40 and they are playing $20-40. Meaning, I hardly ever play a flop for $20. So I'm used to the $40's, and that's why it's no big deal to pop $40 in there, and just give up after a miss with players behind, and save some chips til I have a pair or position.

Tommy

MichaelD · #8 02-19-2003, 07:34 AM

Tommy,

I think your advice, along with Mike l's, is very good advice regarding this situation. It comes up very often where someone raises AK, misses the flop entirely and then continues to play the hand as though it were Aces.

I once heard an old timer describe AK as nothing more than a drawing hand. He described it as having 89 of diamonds and the board were to come with 237 with 2 clubs, would you still continue with the hand? Obviously the answer is no. While I understand that this analogy is not quite the same due to the greater overcard value of AK. However, I think it still paints a pretty good picture of the fact that in a majority of situations, AK really can be looked at as a drawing hand.

When I raise preflop with AK and miss entirely, I usually just check and fold as long as there are 2 or more opponents behind me. If I am against only one opponent, depending on who it is or how they play, I may not lay this hand down so easily. On rare occasion, if I am against two opponents who are easy to read, I may continue with the hand. However, when continuing with AK for over card value, it is usually better to hit the K rather than the A as the A may very well give someone else two pair.

Just some thoughts.

Michael D.

Double Play · #9 02-19-2003, 12:22 PM

Thank you for all of your responses and advice. I've been thinking for a while now that A,K is more of a drawing hand from early position and the different ways I could play that particular hand.

I believe it was Astroglide who asked "were you honestly expecting him to call on the river with a worse hand, or fold a better one? i don't think you thought that one through enough, and if it's indicative of your general tendencies, you need to give more consideration to what exactly is going on outside of the scope of your 2 cards and how they fit in with the flop." I agree. I've changed gears a bit.

Thanks all!