AQ for no raise (MichaelD)?

[Kevin J]

"This is IMO a silly discussion. Its really not close at all."

I almost didn't bother posting this for fear that people would say exactly what you just did. But I want to know if there are positional complications that I'm not considering. For instance, I'd rarely (if ever) play an ATo. But the reason I don't play it, is NOT because a Ten is such an inferior kicker to a queen when you flop a pair of aces (although it may be).... But because I am much more likely to make top pair when a queen flops, AND it's more likely to hold up.

I know this is basic stuff. But Mike got me thinking about it. And I feel it never hurts to review fundamentals once in a while, no matter how advanced a player is. IMO-

[Dynasty]

For instance, I'd rarely (if ever) play an ATo (in early position).

ATo is a clear fold in EP. AQo is a clear play, almost always with a raise in EP.

AJo is where the EV becomes so thin that folding is a serious option. But, that debate has been going on forever.

[mike l.]

seems like a reasonable play to me if you just dont feel like playing unsuited big cards in early position in a wilder raise-heavy game.

heck, i even heard there's some guy going around looking to fold AA preflop. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[astroglide]

AJo still showed a profit in the same settings i used for AQo, but MUCH less - $3 per hand.

[Clarkmeister]

"For instance, I'd rarely (if ever) play an ATo. But the reason I don't play it, is NOT because a Ten is such an inferior kicker to a queen when you flop a pair of aces"

It should be a reason. The primary reason one doesn't play ATo UTG is because mathematically it is too likely that AJ-AK, AA-TT has been dealt to one of the 9 remaining hands. The position just exacerbates the problem.

[J_V]

You don't become a better player the tighter you get. Every post that revolves around Michael D (and Kevin J) seems to be about getting as rust tight as one could possibly get. Fortunately, that's not where the optimum dollar value lies. Why does all the emphasis get put on preflop play? Why can't we work on big flop laydowns when we are drawing thin? Seems to me that's where the money is.

[Dynasty]

Why can't we work on big flop laydowns when we are drawing thin? Seems to me that's where the money is.

The money isn't made with big flop laydowns. But, it's definitely made in overall post-flop play. I'd guess that a typical winning player makes a very small % of his profits from pre-flop decisions (less than 10%).

[MichaelD]

Kevin

Don't get me wrong, I do not ALWAYS fold this hand. I will fold it often though if I am first or second in. It just does not rank that high on my list of hands that I have found profitable from early position.

I never said I was right, but as your other post demonstrates by listing my exact words, I did give my reasons for it.

I have heard some say I am to tight.

I have also heard some say that every post that revovles around me is regarding pre-flop play and how tight it is.

To those who say these things, I say I may be tight from early position but I will play a great deal many hands from later position if the situation dictates. If you take a poll of players who have played against me for an extended period of time, they will either tell you I am a rock or a maniac, depending on their perspective or how observant they actually are. My own belief is that I play extremely tight up front, but as I gain a positional advantage I push my edge as much as I can possibly push it. From my experience, position is extremely valuable in this game.

As far as what JV says, I agree 100%. The real profit in the play of hands is made post flop. Of this, there can be very little debate and I have never claimed otherwise. All I did was respond to a post Kevin had made in which I presented a possible alternative action that could have avoided a tricky post flop situation. That is all, nothing more. I have found myself in situations similar to the one he describes too many times, and I prefer to play most of my hands with position these days as much as possible.

If there is doubt as to whether my thoughts have even the least bit of validity, then I would suggest going to COmmerce, or Aruba in peak season, or anywhere else the game plays over aggresssive with 6-7 players seeing the flop every hand for 3-4 bets. Sit down in these games and play AQ off under the gun or in early position. Play it anyway you like - raise it, limp with it, straddle it - I don't care - but do't fold it.

Play it and keep track of it for 5000 hours, 5000 times you play it - whatever. Don't run a computer simulation on it - they are very valuable but not completely accurate. They are not thinking human beings who are adjusting based on emotion. I have yet to see a computer go on full blown tilt - and I have yet to meet a player who does not go on some form of tilt.

Anyway, play this hand in an overaggressive game and see what happens. Watch as your bankroll requirements shoot higher than you ever thought possible, and then report back to me and let me know how long you lasted before you considered that folding this hand pre-flop for no raise was POSSIBLY an option you should consider in some situations.

From my experience, poker is a very situational game, and folding this hand pre-flop is a definite reality for me if the situation warrants it. I know the situation Kevin described in another post was not described as a maniacal game, but Kevin stated

"To be honest, I don't believe I've ever played in a game where I even considered mucking AQ first in. That's how clear cut I always thought it was. "

Well, I have played in many games where I have mucked it. As I said, position is of extreme importance to me. I prefer playing hands that may not be nearly as strong as AQ, but give them to me with position every time, show me a flop and lets go from there.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[PokerPrince]

I don't see a problem with folding AQo in EP if the game conditions are wildly aggressive. I've been in games where I don't think twice about mucking this hand in early as it will 100% come back capped to me. I'm not too keen on playing this hand out of position for 4 bets preflop against a field of 6-8 other players. In a typical game where the action is mild/normal this hand is usually worth a raise in EP especially if your raises are getting respect. If you cannot narrow the field down with a raise I think a limp is best though.

PokerPrince

[Kevin J]

"AJo is where the EV becomes so thin that folding is a serious option."

And why do you suppose that is? I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I don't know the answer. I'd think that I've been playing (and winning) long enough to where this should be painfully obvious to me. AQ is clearly profitable, yet AJ is borderline. Is it because there are more good flops for a pair of jacks than a pair of queens? Surely it's not because a queen is such a better kicker than a jack. Or is it?