ATs, fold to a raise or... Play with odds?

[slugheads]

As we all know, we should toss ATs to a raise in nl poker.. But, if the Pot odds are right, can this hand be playable?..Even if there is a raise present?

An example would be, you limp ATs UTG... Someone raises, and 4 others call the raise... Pot is offering you 4-1 to 5-1 odds... should u call?

[Gordon Scott]

If you are last to act, I say it depends.
How deep is the money?
Ring Game or Tournamnet?


I'm not a math guy but I know anyone who has your answer is going to need much more info to give you a logical answer.

Best of Luck

Gordon Scott

[slugheads]

Deep money (at least full buy in)... Ring games... The odds are 4-1 or 5-1 when it gets to you...

[Finite_Risk]

It may be the wrong play, but I still chuck it. Good chance the Ace is dominated...if an Ace flops without the 10, how do you feel...what if it's a K-high flop? With this many callers, I'd almost view this as A6s...even at 4 or 5 to 1

[MushashiAce]

The way I would look at this would be the following.
1. Is this a tournament or cash game.
2. How high are the ante/ Big blinds compared to your stack
3. are the players at the table loose or tight, aggresive or passive
4.Who were the orignal callers? WHo was the raiser and how does he play? Is this a situation where you know people would call with marginal pre-flop hands?.
5. How many players do you have position on?
6. How do others view you as far as your table image?
This is just some of the things i would consider in this scenario. The truth is, if your table is somewhat tight, I wouldn't have limped in with Ace/Ten in early position. Furthermore, if the original raiser is tight along with the table, what do youy expect to gain from your hand? Pot odds of 5-1 pre-flop are very nice to call with, but since you limped in first position, your putting yourself in a very vulnerable position depending on how many people have position on you, because if you do hit an ace, you might be outkicked, and if you hit a ten, the original raiser might have you beat with a higher pocket pair, and if either of these situations happen (which their both very possible) your going to be a huge dawg to win the hand. I think the lesson here is don't play ace ten especially in first position without a raise, unless you think you can dominate and cointrol the other players your playing with. Since it sounds like you were uncomfortable making the call even with good pre-flop odds, your original mistake probably was playing the hand at all given your position, especially if you were playing in a tournament. COmments? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[slugheads]

Hmm... GOod point... OK, heres the new scenario... Instead of ATs, you have A2s... And you are in late position..And you are deep pockets in a ring game, as everyone else is too...

I need to know the bare minimal pot odds to make this call and profit in the long run...

I am trying to profect my preflop strategy perfect with drawing hands in NL cash rings

[vic1225]

In your first question it may be a fold due to position, chip stack, and players calling or the preflop raiser. Now concerning the second situation your position is correct, players calling are they passive/aggressive tend to bet/check into preflop raiser, bet size compared to chip stack, deep stack 2k being comfronted with a 500 raise I would be forced to muck it, but if it 50-100 raise with 4 callers passive with a loose one I'm calling. hope this helps.

[MushashiAce]

For five to one odds and late position, I would only be worried about a raise behind me. Think of it this way, even if someone has got you outkicked, one on one you have a this result:
---------------
Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=321785
pokenum -h ad 2d - ac qc
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad 2d 455746 26.62 1160635 67.78 95923 5.60 0.294
Ac Qc 1160635 67.78 455746 26.62 95923 5.60 0.706
-----------------------------------------------

So one on one, your getting the suffcient odds alreasdy, and you have the 5% chance of making yor ace high flush, and this will pay off much more knowing with more people in the pot. Depending on your style of play, this could be eithier a call or fold, but there is just so much that limping into a pot like that with a dominate position adds, that the way I play, I wouldn't hesitate with suited connectors and Ace rag suited. As far as the exact odds you need to play that hand, again it would depend on the situation. What I have started to learn is pre-flop starting hands is only part of an overall strategy, especially in no limit, and its really your play with those two cards that "makes" them positive or negative EV in a no limit situation. Of course in limit choosing hands to start with is of higher importance.Thoughts? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]