Hi-Lo, Ante Structure and Super System

[DocOfDan]

Hi

I've played a fair bit of holdem, so am familiar with general poker concepts surrounding pot odds, playing tight aggressive etc.
I bought Super System 2 a while back, and decided to give 7 stud Hi-lo a run. I liked the idea of a game with smaller (than holdem) variance which rewarded solid play. I've played a fair bit over the last few months at micro-limits ($0.5/$1 on Party) but I seem to be slowly leaking money. Based on most of the players I am coming up against, I don't think I'm playing that bad (I see the weirdest starting hands fall into something good!) and I think I'm playing pretty much as Todd Brunson advocates in the book.

It just got me thinking - is TB's recommended way of playing in any way sub-optimal for these micro-limits?
What I'm thinking is because the ante size is high in relation to a big bet (BB is only 4 antes at this limit, while at $3/$6 a big bet is 12 antes), you maybe need to play a bit looser with the starting hands?

I realise of course I probably have lots of holes in my own play that help me leak money [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
However, the question still stands - does one need to 'open up' a little with such a high (relative) ante, and if so, how much?

Any help from you wizards at this game would be appreciated!

[SuitedBaby]

You'll have to wait for a wizard but I have a few thoughts. I haven't played the game you are talking about but I guess you are saying the ante is $.25 and then the being-in must be $.25 also? A very extreme structure indeed.

This sort of structure at these limits brings to mind the "schooling" concept in holdem. Bad players (fish) limping with bad hands make it more correct from a pot odd standpoint for other bad players to play their bad hands. If the bring-in and six other players limped in in front of you in the game you are discussing you would be getting 15:1 on your call. I think this extreme but probably not unusual example shows how this structure clearly makes a lot of marginal hands playable.

Normally the advice you hear is to play looser in a tight game and tighter in a loose game. But one must remember that this advice really means: play looser in a game that is being played too tight and play tighter in a game that is being played too loose. Here loose play is forced upon you by the structure.

You'll have to wait for the wizards for good guidelines on hands but certainly in unraised pots many good 2 cards starts will now be playable. It will also depend on how passive the particular game is.

One last thought. Take a hard look at what the rake is taking out of this game. I know, I know it is microlimit and microrake. Probably not, do the math. Almost all hands will be max raked due to the structure. Also most pots will be split due to the pot odds to chase and the multi-way action. Your skill based edges are reduced in this game. It is hard to make money in split games off of split pots and the rake will weigh in heavily.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi

I've played a fair bit of holdem, so am familiar with general poker concepts surrounding pot odds, playing tight aggressive etc.
I bought Super System 2 a while back, and decided to give 7 stud Hi-lo a run. I liked the idea of a game with smaller (than holdem) variance which rewarded solid play. I've played a fair bit over the last few months at micro-limits ($0.5/$1 on Party) but I seem to be slowly leaking money. Based on most of the players I am coming up against, I don't think I'm playing that bad (I see the weirdest starting hands fall into something good!) and I think I'm playing pretty much as Todd Brunson advocates in the book.

It just got me thinking - is TB's recommended way of playing in any way sub-optimal for these micro-limits?
What I'm thinking is because the ante size is high in relation to a big bet (BB is only 4 antes at this limit, while at $3/$6 a big bet is 12 antes), you maybe need to play a bit looser with the starting hands?

I realise of course I probably have lots of holes in my own play that help me leak money [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
However, the question still stands - does one need to 'open up' a little with such a high (relative) ante, and if so, how much?

Any help from you wizards at this game would be appreciated!

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think Brunson's recommendations are sub optimal for micro Stud 8/b. I play the 1/2 game at several sites (both Stud and Stud 8/b) and pretty much use Brunsons recommendations (for the hi-lo). You are correct in that having a high ante structure requires you to loosen up a bit on 3rd st. I am not experienced enough to say exactly how much but basically I am more willing to play what Brunson would term the marginal hands. To equate to holdem, I am willing to pay to see more flops in hopes of flopping a monster. Dont go crazy with this concept obviously. I think Brunsons's recommendations are pretty good already. Just start to play a few more hands and see what you think. I would suspect however that a) you are running bad or b) play on the later streets might be suspect.

Remember Brunson's "Platinum Rule" about always playing for the scoop. This seems simplistic but it has a lot of implications and I can say that just keeping this thought always at the forefront of my mind has helped my Stud hi-lo game immensely in the short time I have been playing.

[Andy B]

If you're losing money in that game, there is an excellent chance that you're not playing very well. Get Ray Zee's book.

That game has a ridiculous over-ante. I think the biggest stud games in the world have an ante of 25% of the small bet. In that game, it's 50%. It's stupid. If you can swing the $1/2 game, I suggest that you do so.

Because of the very high ante, there is a temptation to loosen up considerably. With a game this loose, though, the bottom line is that you're going to have to show down the best hand. That being the case, I would suggest sticking pretty close to normal starting hand requirements.

Post some hands.

[highfidelity]

The low-limit Stud games at Party are painful. If you play mostly Stud games switch to any other site ASAP and you'll be able to wait for the starting hands you'd prefer.

[DocOfDan]

Thanks guys - great advice so far!

Hifi - you recommend going to other sites- anywhere in particular?
I play mainly hold-em, but wouldn't mind playing more hi-low.
Of the places I have accounts, Paradise is the only one that offers hi/lo, besides Party/empire, and there aren't that many games.

[Andy B]

PokerStars has some decent stud/8 games at the micro-limits, although their ante structure is too small, in my opinion. The action is better on Party, but the Stars games are a lot better than Paradise's, and actually bear some resemblence to a real poker game.