Omaha hi/lo question

[FREDSKINS]

Never play much hi/lo but sometimes game selection drags me there. So here is my question, your in late position, 4 callers, you hold Ah 2h 6c 8s do you raise? I frequently make these kinds of raises are they correct? I think of high low like this. I want pot odds, I never make limit the field raises preflop (its a $2/$4 game anyways) and usually try to make the pots big preflop as to trap more players in. I'm sure there are flaws in this stragety and would be greatful if anyone could help point them out. thanks FREDSKINS

[chaos]

That is not a bad raise in my opinion. You have A2 with some backup for low and a nut flush draw for high.

Raising preflop adds a little to your expectation but a lot to your variance. This is because until the flop you do not know where you stand.

[iblucky4u2]

In this situation, a raise is not that good a play. You have only minor backup with the 6 and the flush will only be there about 10% of the time. Also, if you raise and do hit the flop, you will not get as much action from the 2nd low or flush hands. Wait to see the flop - if it hits, then use your position to pound them - Just MHO.

[KDF]

For typical loose/ passive O8...
I like to use the 'three-ways-to-win' rule of thumb when raising from late position (or blinds)pre-flop. O8 is a very flop-dependent game. If you miss, you’re out of the hand. It’s also a jack-up-the-pot or limp-in-cheap game. Which means pre-flop I usually limp in 90% of the times that I come in at all, and only raise when I have at least three (hopefully more) nut-draw possibilities from late position or blinds when limpers are present-- but not always.

Example 1: A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
Here I have 1.Nut-low with 2.best protector-low and a 3.nut-flush draw. <3-ways to win>
Example 2: A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
1. Nut flush 2. Nut straight(s); 3. Nut-flush redraw if A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] hits; 4. Big pair (good with no low out).
In example two, I will raise with this type of hand pre-flop no matter where I am. This is the kind of hand where you want people to drop preflop, but if they come along that’s ok too. Its dependent on poor or no low draws hitting the board. If you miss, or hit a less-than-nut draw to half the pot, it's easy to fold. But if there are already a lot of chips in the pot from a preflop raise and many callers, you often have the odds to take one more with multiple decent backdoor shots and no definite low yet.

What I won't raise with:
Example 1: A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
Only two nut draws exist with very weak protection. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't consider a 6 or 8 protection at all. If an A or 2 hits, against 4 or more callers my low is no good and I'm gone unless I have the flush draw or something otherwise unexpected and worthy of continuing.
Example 2: A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
Won't raise with this either unless, everyone folds to me in late position and I can get it down to 1 or 2 opponents. Rare in the games I play, but effective when the situation is right.
Example 3: A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
~overrated hand IMHO. But many invariably raise with it into a large limping field. Not a healthy raise in my opinion.

Lots of people make the mistake of raising preflop with a lone A2 or A2 with one other winning possibility or even lone Aces. Sooner or later the counterfeiting, quartering and missed draws will teach them otherwise (or maybe not [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] ). Three-ways-to-win works well --for me anyway.

IMHO…

[chaos]

Example 2: A[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

I woldn't raise with this hand in general. About 75% of the time the flop will come with 2 or 3 low cards. I also don't know how easy it is for most people to fold if the flop comes with two clubs not includung the Ace.

With high-only hands I want to see the flop cheaply.

[758219]

A2s is a hand to raise a field of random garbage from late position, while you don't want to drive them out raising earlier. If it's not a garbage game, it's a game where you want a strong enough two way hand that is average likely not the worse hand either way, the idea is to get some real hands fold after you, and put the blinds put more money to the pot, or fold and leave some dead money to the pot. It's a bad play to let them come in for free. You also intimidate the early/earlier limpers to proportionally fold more easily after the flop; e.g. rather than coming out betting mere second nut low, they now are more likely to check and fold at some point, giving you the whole or half a pot rather than 1/2 or 1/4. Not raising when your poker view says to raise is a bad play. Raising adds a lot of value to marginal (often best hands) in position in typical games.

[KDF]

Example 2: A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
You bring up a good issue, and I respect your opinion. Raising with High-only hands can be a mistake if they are not good enough. KQJ9 rainbow is a trouble hand. AJJ9 no suited ace, is marginal. But we’re talking about a very good high-hand with lots of possibilities. And it’s the nut-possibilities that make it worth a raise. Would you cold-call in MP to a UTG raise with A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] ? It’s a great scooper if you hit right, and an easy muck if you miss.


I believe the concept for raising with this hand is the same for raising a hand like JTs from the button or blind in Texas Hold’em. When there are already a lot of limpers, you generally raise. If you get a good flop, you get great odds to win a giant pot. If you miss, you take the free card or you muck. In O8 sometimes you may only win a giant ½ pot, but if you have lots of high-nut possibilities, it’s certainly worth the pre-flop jacker-rupper. Also, it’s often easier to muck in O8 even when you grab a piece of the flop, but you know that you really have no chance.

If, on the other hand, you raise it early with this hand and drop most of the field behind you, you will be in a great position to take the hi-end without improvement. And, if no low comes, you may win one of those rare O8- uncontested pots or improve to a great hand. So there are many advantages to this kind of raise. IMHO

Anyway, regarding the K high flush draw: in my experience and studies, for the kind of games we’re talking about, drawing to second nut flush for half a pot against a large field is generally a poor play. Negative EV --I believe. It should be an easy muck. If people tag along with that and nothing else, they’re welcome at my table anytime.

Best regards-

[Buzz]

"...in late position, 4 callers, you hold Ah 2h 6c 8s do you raise?"

Fredskins - Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.

"....usually try to make the pots big preflop as to trap more players in."

Does that work well enough to justify the additional cost and variance? I mean, seems like it might work, but it's costing you twice as much when you miss the flop.

"I'm sure there are flaws in this stragety and would be greatful if anyone could help point them out."

I think you can get away with raising with a nice hand like Ah2h6c8s, especially from late position. The hand fits well with more flops than the average hand does. You also can get away with not raising with the hand. Your pre-flop raise is not likely to knock out another opponent with A2XX, and you are going to get quartered for low somthing like two hands out of every five (in a full game) where there even is a low. (Given your cards, low will be possible on the river only about 55% of the time).

I think that any time you raise for value (because of the strength of your hand), you want the fresh money coming from your opponents compared to (divided by) the money coming from you to be greater than the odds against making your hand. It's difficult to figure your odds of your hand winning before the flop, but sometimes you can estimate the chance of your hand fitting well enough with the flop to continue after the flop.

With Ah2h6c8s, you are very likely to have a decent fit with the flop. Ideally you want a flop with 3h4h5h, AsAdAc, or even AsAd8d. Realistically, you want a flop with two or three hearts, and/or two or three low cards, not including an ace or a deuce. Or you want a flop with a pair of sixes plus A, 3, 4, 5, 7, or 8. Or you want a flop with a pair of eights plus A, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7. There really are a lot of flops that fit nicely with your hand. Not as many as half all the possible flops, but probably upwards of forty per cent of them. That's just a seat of the pants guess.

The disadvantage of raising with Ah2h6c8s is twofold. (1) You may not be able to get in a raise on a later round when it would be worth more. (2) You may drive poor low draws (A3XX, 23XX, A4XX, 24XX and worse) out of the hand, probably not on the first betting round, but on the second betting round when the flop is something like 5h-7d-8c. Those second to fifth rate low draws might chase all the way to the showdown if they didn't strongly suspect you might have the nut low.

If you're in a game where your opponents are stupidly calling your pre-flop raises with garbage opening hands and chasing after the flop with non-nut draws, even though you have made a pre-flop raise, then, sure, go ahead and raise. But if your opponents are not stupid, then you may want to use more finesse.

In a loose-pre-flop, tight-post-flop, L.A. area casino style game where most of your opponents are gone anyway if their hands don't fit with the flop, but where they'll call your pre-flop raise since they've already put in one bet, then I think you raise before the flop from late position with Ah2h6c8s to get a bit more, on the average, out of the limpers.

So whether you raise or not kind of depends on how your opponents are playing. But with the particular hand you have cited, in general I don't think it matters a good deal one way or the other whether you raise or not from late position.

In many of the games in which I play, I probably would raise from late position with this hand to lend credibility to other hands with which I would make tactical raises. For example, I might come in with an early position raise in some situations holding Ac5sQsQd, hoping to steal the blinds or end up one-on-one with an opponent. If everyone in front of me had folded, I would probably come in with a raise from late position, hoping to steal the blinds or get one-on-one with a random blind hand, a hand I might either outflop or outplay after the flop. (The tactic simply wouldn't work if I was only pre-flop raising with semi-trash hands like Ac5sQsQd).

Thus the reasons behind the answer to your question may have various degrees of complexity, depending on your opponents. But the answer is simple: "It doesn't matter much one way or the other. Sure, go ahead and raise if you want."

I responded to your post because you wanted someone to point out flaws in your strategy. I'm not sure if I have pointed out any flaws or not. My thinking seems a bit different from yours; I might (or might not) raise with your hand, but for a different reason than the one you gave.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

Chaos - I agree with you. When considering whether or not to raise before the flop, my own thinking is in terms of flops my hand will fit compared to the number of opponents who will call the raise. A pre-flop raise with AdKdKcQc may seem worth while when you (1) get an extra bet out of everyone, (2) subsequently catch a nice fit with the flop, then (3) bet and take the pot on the second betting round. But even then, there’s no way to be absolutely certain. It could be that a couple of opponents would have chased all the way to the showdown with inferior hands had you not made it more expensive for them in the beginning. But it could also be that someone would out-draw you if you let them play. At any rate, when you raise before the flop and catch a nice fit with the flop, then the raise might not have been an altogether poor move.

However, and this is the main consideration for me, there are only a very limited number of flops that fit well with AdKdKcQc.... AAX, KXX, QQX, JTX and AQX plus some flush flops and flush draw flops come to mind. But that’s about it, at least in a loose game where four or more of your opponents are seeing the flop, raised or not. And in a tight game of Omaha-8, AdKdKcQc does not seem a great one-on-one hand for most flops (it has no chance for low).

Thus I’d raise sometimes with AdKdKcQc, but I’d mostly limp with it. The raise would be mainly tactical rather than for value. You can make a better case for pre-flop raising with this hand, IMHO, when you’re playing with opponents who don’t know how to play Omaha-8 very well - especially with very, very poor players. Against decent opponents, I prefer to wait and see the flop. IMHO, you’re turning the game into a crap shoot when you raise before the flop with AdKdKcQc. You might want to do that if you're outclassed by your opposition in terms of post-flop play, but if you can play capably after the flop I think you generally do better (depending) by seeing the flop as cheaply as possible.

When you have four high cards in your hand, for example KdKcQdQc, there are two or three low cards on the flop 75% of the time. (12992/17296 = .751)

However, if one of your high cards is an ace, for example, AdKdKcQc, then there is less chance of a flop with two or three low cards, about 67%. (11590/17296 = .670).

Doesn’t matter for the sake of your point, which IMHO, is well taken. Either way (75% or 67%), a two or three card low flop is very likely. And either way, I agree with you about generally not raising before the flop with AdKdKcQc.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

“But we’re talking about a very good high-hand with lots of possibilities. And it’s the nut-possibilities that make it worth a raise.”

Derek - I agree AdKdKcQc is a good hand. My thinking is the nut-possibilities make AdKdKcQc a good hand. I would continue play after 28% of all possible flops. (4865/17296 = 0.2813). That means unless I use FSP (fancy play syndrome), I’m probably folding after the flop 72% of the time.

Following are all of the flops I have included in the 28% playable group:
AAA, AAK, AAQ, AAX, AKK, AKQ, AKX, AQQ, AQX, KKQ, KKX, KQQ, KQX, KXX, QQQ, QQX, AcXcXc AcXcXn (but no pairs), XdXdXd (but no pairs), XdXdXn (but no pairs), QdXdXd (but no pairs), QdXdXn (but no pairs), JTX (but no pairs), QJT (but no pairs), AJT (but no pairs). I realize that under some conditions one might play after other flops, but in a loose game, playing overpairs (kings in this case) can be an expensive drain. It's great when the board pairs and you hit your overpair, and if you're playing against a table of total idiots, doing so might make sense. Most of my opponents are at least a notch above that, although some of them evidently think they're playing Texas hold 'em and do play overpairs. It hurts when they hit, but you have to love them in the game with you.

28% playable is not bad. But just because a flop is “playable” doesn’t mean you win the hand. In particular, AQX (top two pair), AAX (top trips), KXX (top set), QQX (top trips) AcXcXn (nut club flush draw), XdXdXn (nut diamond flush draw), and JTX (nut straight draw) account for 4182 of the playable flops. These playable but drawing flops account for most of the flops in the “playable” group. (Without the drawing flops only about 4% of the possible flops would be playable).

Looking ahead at this, realizing that I’m not playing after 72% of the flops, and realizing that I will still probably need a favorable card on the turn or river draw to make a winning hand. I think pre-flop raising with AdKdKcQc is simply a low percentage play in terms of betting the hand for value. I think you do better seeing the flop as cheaply as possible with hands like AdKdKcQc. Might depend on one's style of play.

Just my opinion. I’m interested in opposing opinions.

Buzz