ultimatebet 100 cancelled because they missed gaurantee?

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]
You mean someone actually thought to contact UB and ask the question rather than speculate in post after post. Sometimes I am amazed at the number of posts that claim to have information but are just opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you really expect the poker site to answer any way else?

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
You mean someone actually thought to contact UB and ask the question rather than speculate in post after post. Sometimes I am amazed at the number of posts that claim to have information but are just opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand the point of this post.

You're saying that the posters here have no business subjectively defining the term "guaranteed tournament?"

And then you are further positing that asking Ultimate Bet whether or not they're hedging their bets is definitive, and that this pretty much ends all of the speculation?

Welcome to planet Earth.

[DVaut1]

I agree with MBE. As I’m sure all of us know, a "guarantee" is something that assures a particular outcome or condition. The condition which UB is guaranteeing isn't that the tournament will run. The condition UB is guaranteeing is that IF the tournament runs, it will have a prize pool of $17k. In fact, I believe their General Tournament Rules state as such (http://www.ultimatebet.com/rules-str...les.html#multi):

"23. Tournament registration must meet the minimum requirement for that event or the tournament will not run. In this event, all buy-ins and fees will be returned to the players' accounts.
28. UltimateBet.com reserves the right to change any tournament time, guaranteed prize pool, or event without notice.
29. reserves the right to alter the rules and make final decisions on all tournament related issues as they arise, and at our sole discretion
30. In case of disputes decisions made by UltimateBet.com are final."


Many posters were implying that UB's Guaranteed Prize Pool Events actually contained two implicit guarantees; 1) The tournament will have a $17k prize pool AND 2) The tournament will run.

UB is only guaranteeing #1 and it is only guaranteeing #1 IF they choose to run the tournament, which is of course at their sole discretion, meaning they need no justification to cancel it (see rules 23, 28, & 29 of UB’s MTT Rules).

In regards to the emailed response from the UB Customer Service Agent, it is important to keep this point in mind. UB is agreeing to cover the overlay IF (and only IF) they decide to run the tournament. Nowhere in the UB Customer Service Agent’s reply

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you are correct, we will cover the missing amount if necessary. Remember, the minimum prize is regardless of how many people register.

[/ QUOTE ]

does it say that they will guarantee the tournament will run, only that IF the tournament does run, “the minimum prize is regardless of how many people register.”

I think this is merely a language debate. Whether or not this is "good/bad business" " is subjective and I suppose we can each draw our own conclusions as to the wisdom of the business decisions UB makes. But the question of whether or not UB is "cheating" or is acting "duplicitously/deceitfully" ought to be entirely settled, because UB is clearly not cheating nor being dishonest, as their Terms and Conditions are quite transparent.

IMHO, what some posters here are claiming when they say UB is "cheating" or "dishonest about their guarantee," they are in fact saying that UB has predatory advertising. In other words, UB is playing on the false hopes of poker players who expect a tournament to run with a huge overlay by calling it a "guaranteed" tournament. But these hopes are only false because they lie with the player misunderstanding what UB is in fact guaranteeing.

[Hotchile]

I have never heard such erroneous logic. "We guarantee $20,000 but only if we run the tournament, there is no guarantee that we will do that".

If the option is there to cancel a tournament due to lack of entries, DON'T GUARANTEE THEM.

or option b.......

Place a guarantee and then stipulate "Based on X number of entries" and make X worth 1/2 of the guarantee. That way, they won't be on the line for a lot of money, players understand that the entry line has not been met and so the guarantee won't kick in and most importantly, THE TOURNAMENT CAN STILL RUN without players thinking that you have done anything deceptive or unethical.

I don't think anybody can buy into the idea that there is a guaranteed prize but we can pull the plug without warning at anytime. IMO, UB shot itself in the foot here.

HC

[mshalen]

I should have made my posting clearer.

If you have a question concerning the policy of a site the first place to go is the site itself. Once you have read the site's policy (which is typically posted and does not always require a call to customer service) THEN you can discuss the fairness of that policy.

The bulk of the discussion was peoples opinions that were stated/formed without knowledge of the specific policy. I have noted in the past there are alot of postings that shoot first and aim later.

In other words before I discuss the validity of a sites policy I would find out what the specific policy is. So if you want to discuss what "guarantee" means in this specific UB context then do your research first. If you want a general discussion of "guaranteed" then start a seperate thread. By mixing general opinion with a case specific question we end up with a jumbled mess and this is not any help in answering the original posters question.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I should have made my posting clearer.

If you have a question concerning the policy of a site the first place to go is the site itself. Once you have read the site's policy (which is typically posted and does not always require a call to customer service) THEN you can discuss the fairness of that policy.

The bulk of the discussion was peoples opinions that were stated/formed without knowledge of the specific policy. I have noted in the past there are alot of postings that shoot first and aim later.

In other words before I discuss the validity of a sites policy I would find out what the specific policy is. So if you want to discuss what "guarantee" means in this specific UB context then do your research first. If you want a general discussion of "guaranteed" then start a seperate thread. By mixing general opinion with a case specific question we end up with a jumbled mess and this is not any help in answering the original posters question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should we also, then, scour the rules sections of all of the sites, attempting to ascertain the relative values of poker hands at each particular site, or should we simply assume that every site will say the same thing?

Because there IS a definition of "guaranteed prizepool tournament," and it does not involve simply canceling the tournament if the guarantee is not met.

This is not open to interpretation. If they say it is, they are re-writing the rules to suit themselves, just as they would be if they decided that if you win a hand with a pair of nines, the rake is tripled.

[Rushmore]

After reading your post (which I choose not to copy here), I have decided that either I am too stupid and/or misguided to participate in this debate, or that the world has gone mad and there's little point to railing against a world gone mad.

Either way, I'm done.

P.S. The third option, that the sites have a right to abide by whatever arbitrary, mercenary, unfair rules they roll out, is the most frightening of the three options.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I have never heard such erroneous logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume it is not MY logic to which you have referred, becuase it appears we are in agreement.

[Hotchile]

Sorry Rushmore. Put my reply in the wrong place. We are in agreement. Just to use another posters analogy, when a store guarantees satisfaction, they are doing exactly that. So, when a site guarantees a prize payout, how can they pay it if they don't run the event? Would seem as though they have reneged on their guarantee.

HC

[KenProspero]

IMO, we're missing the issue here.

First of all, if this was a technical glitch -- no problem, this happens.

If not, I suppose it's a matter of whether you think that UB was deceptive.

Gambling and poker depend on the honor of the participants. This is especially so, considering the fact that most sites are off-shore, and you rely on their honor to pay you. Essentially, the US courts won't protect you here.

If you feel UB has acted in bad faith (and I'm not saying they have), then your best recourse is to find another site. Write them a nice letter, explaining why you're going to play elsewhere.

If enough people feel that UB is breaking its word, or being deceptive, then they'll go out of business.

However, my view is that you shouldn't play on a site that you don't trust.