Ciaffone and NL starting Hands.

[angelo alba]

In the book "Pot-Limit and No-Limit Poker" Bob Ciaffone makes the point re NLHE that "If pairs are worth more ...something's got to be worth less. That something is big unsuited cards...AK, AQ, KQ " . He goes on to state elsewhwere that these are the type of hands that can often win a small pot and lose a big one. He advices playing small (22-55) pairs only in late position and in unraised pots.

My question is this. Has someone, via comp sims , experience , divine revelation or deductive logic come up with an equivalent of starting hand ranks for NL?

Yeah I know, AA is still best,

( and of course everyone's such an experienced player that the question hardly matters [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] )

But, out of morbid curiosity, are the other group rankings THAT similar to limit hand rankings that, despite Ciafone's observation, they're not worth talking about?

Or is there a sigfnificant difference?

[Jimbo]

I haven't read one page of his book but I would hope he concentrates more on position and post flop strategy than starting hand strength, as you should as well. Position, relative stack size , reading other players and post flop play are all more important than starting hand strength.

If you are going to play N/L do not focus too much on starting hands or you will pay very expensive lessons.

[angelo alba]

Hmm... why does this answer not suurprise me? Ok, gang I know it's the party line, still...

Say, is there anyone who HAS read a page of this book?

[Jimbo]

PARTY LINE? LOL Who are you trying to fool? I have played P/L and N/L poker for over 30 years before I ever heard of the "party" or limit poker. You can wait till someone posts what you are looking for but that will not help you one iota in a no limit situation. What would reading a page of his book have to do with correct play regarding the importance of starting hands relative to the other factors involved?

[lwinfieldm]

group 1 AA KK AK QQ JJ 1010

group 2 AQ 99 88 77

group 3 AJ 66 55 44

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I don't know about AJ in group 3. If the money is short, that's one thing. In a typical game with deeper money, I'll take any suited connectors or suited 1-gappers over AJo. AJs is MUCH better than AJo.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[angelo alba]

Hey, Jimbo, chill out! No disrepect intended. I always get good info from your posts and by 'party line' I meant that it's a given, i.e; something we're all supposed to know, that post flop play, position and tells are much more important than starting hands. All of which is undoubtedly true.

I am curious however as to how NL and NL tournament players judge the first two cards. Reading Ciaffone one gets the impression that AKo, for example, is (yes, position, chip stack and all other things being equal) as he puts it, the type of hand that's likely to win small pots and lose big.

I was wondering if that's been the experience of the other Nl players; if pairs are to be preferred, even lower ones.

Ditto for suited connectors, with or without high kickers.

Peace.

[Jimbo]

Hi angelo,

I completely misunderstood your initial post as well as your response. My Bad! Now that I do understand your question. I've played a lot of satellites with Ciaffone but never sat at a tourney table with him so my read may be drastically different than reality. I find he is overly agressive with overcards (ie: AK) when checked to in these satellites and often gets pot stuck when behind armed only with a draw. It may be due to this common syndrome, of which he is afflicted, that he makes his statement.

[Guy McSucker]

I think these groupings are very misleading. I even wonder if the post was a joke... no offence intended.

The point of the groupings in the Sklansky/Slanksky&Malmuth books was that preflop hands in the same group could be played much the same way.

AQ and 77 are like chalk and cheese. AQ wants to take it down before or on the flop. 77 wants to hit a set and break the guy with AQ, betting on every street until the money runs out.

AJ is really hard to play in early position. Little pairs are easy: call, don't put more than 5 or 10% of your stack in before the flop, and run away if you miss your set. AJ... whaddya do? Raise it, get called, flop an ace and panic. No thanks!

Guy.

[lwinfieldm]

these are my opinions in heads up all in situations.i should have said that in the response