Game Adjustments for Loose Aggressive Tables

Osprey · #1 03-31-2005, 10:27 AM

So, just took a beating in a Foxwoods 4-8 table yesterday, and was wondering about some advice about how best to play when these situations arise. Basically the table consisted of 4-5 players, who had minimal starting card requirements and were very aggressive, the rest of the table was generally loose and passive to agressive. One of the players for instance, a good period of an hour or two probably pre-flop raised almost every pot. During a long chunk of the night, almost all pots were pre-flop 3 bets, and many capped, with up to 7-8 people seeing most of them (ie, people were seeing the raises). and most flops were raised, and a good many were re-raised as well. The turn slowed down considerably. There was almost always a showdown in these hands, and there would quite often be 3-5 or even 6 callers to the river even after flops had been raised and reraised. To give you an idea, it seemed quite often that flops were raised and reraised with the best hand being middle pair (one specific instance I remember was a middle pair of 9s with 7 kicker reraising on the flop after being bet and raised into, and then having the hand hold up). Ace high would often be raising with 6 players in on the flop.

My night seemed to turn on a few large pots, for instance where my aces were cracked by K-4 off suit floppinh 2 pair after being capped pre-flop with 6 people seeing the flop, another was a a set over set situation where I caught a set of 10s on the turn to lose to someone who flopped 3 aces on the flop. Otherwise, I did not play many hands beyond the flop, and was not folding cards that would have won pots.

My question is, how do you deal with tables like this? If you think you have the best hand pre-flop, should you see things like A-J for 3-4 bets, even though you would normally fold for a raise and a reraise? Is your hand edge there big enough? Should you just play top 10 hands? Shouldn't you be playing drawing hands like A-x suited and K-x suited and suited connectors? These get expensive when you don't hit your flops, or hit top pair but lose to two pair or a better kicker. It seems hard to play when you don't know where you are, when raises and reraises on the flop can mean middle pair, or top set. I know that I will have a pot equity edge because I am generally playing better cards pre-flop then my opponents, and that in the long run my share will hold up, but how good a hand do you need to start with to develop an appreciable edge? For instance, would you play A-J offsuit at this table for 3-4 bets when J-5 off is raising on the flop? It seems like you just need to get lucky and make some hands.

The swings were just immense, with the guy who raised every flop for a good few hours going from buying in a couple times to going on a mad rush for 30 minutes and probably making $500 when his little cards made straights with 4 to the straight on board, and his actual decent hands holding up, then spewing it back over the next few hours.

Everyone seems to think these types of tables are very profitable tables, and it would make sense to me that they should be with people playing very badly. However, I have never done well facing a loose, agressive table and am interested in advice.

Thanks

einbert · #2 03-31-2005, 10:35 AM

Try to isolate the maniacs and see a showdown with good starting hands. Whether or not you pair up/overcards come to your pair.

Failing that, play hands with lots of implied odds even for multiple bets preflop, and fold the flop frequently.

Don't fail to be aggressive back when you have the best hand, and don't fold a hand with showdown value after the flop if it gets heads up.

Read SSHE and HEPFAP.

QTip · #3 03-31-2005, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Try to isolate the maniacs and see a showdown with good starting hands. Whether or not you pair up/overcards come to your pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been doing some thinking about these scenarios...because they do come up rather frequently. I watch a lot of players do this, but I think they're getting way too aggressive with marginal holdings. I remember a statement the chief made once about your AF being the inverse of your opponents. So that, if they're extremely aggressive, you should get more passive.

Of course, if you've got a very strong hand and they keep coming back at you like they always do, make them pay.

But there's nothing wrong with just calling down against a maniac with a marginal holding. I think this will help to manage the swings that you go through while sitting with them.

Just a thought...

chief444 · #4 03-31-2005, 10:45 AM

Flop lots of sets, don't slowplay, and have a big bankroll.

einbert · #5 03-31-2005, 10:52 AM

Of course once you get them isolated let them do the betting for you if your hand doesn't improve very much. But you have to get them isolated for your hand to be worth much once showdown time comes.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 9s Ah (two pair, jacks and sevens).
CO has Kd 9d (two pair, jacks and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.25 BB. 

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ks 8c (one pair, eights).
Hero has Jh Jc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10 BB.

QTip · #6 03-31-2005, 10:53 AM

Nice.