A flop decision that I found interesting

[BobbyTheG]

My thought here is that this is a classic fold or raise.
A call doesn't accomplish what you desperately need, which is narrow the field. So a call is out of the question IMHO.

I don't think a raise here is going to get anyone to fold unless someone three bets it, which is really bad for you too.

If I were 2nd to act I would raise putting the pressure on the two players behind me, but here I fold it. I don't think your raise makes anyone go away and there are just way to many turn/river cards that make your hand (which very well may be good right now) vulnerable.

I fold it for sure here. I raise it 100% of the time if I'm 2nd to act.

[ErrantNight]

why not wait and see what happens on the turn?

[ErrantNight]

why do you fear a crub?

[surfdoc]

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Was nearly 400 replies in the small stakes forum not enough that you posted the same hand with different stakes? Or is that the point?

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It was suggested to me that I post this here without the turn action since some believed that influenced the respones there. As you can see from the thread in SS, the hand received a lot of attention and some of the SSers hoped the MHSers could help us.

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Sorry, I finally waded through most of that thread. It looks like we are headed down the same path in a different forum. As I just posted in the SS thread, I think the quality of the players and the range of hands the BB will raise, make this pretty different. I am still working on figuring out how. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[andyfox]

47 unseen cards. If you call:

45 times you'll miss. Let's say you lose all those hands and have to fold to a bet on the turn. That's -$450.

2 times you'll hit. Let's say you win all those hands. There's $115 already in the pot so in order to make up the $450 you need to make and additional $110 when you hit. ($115 + $110 x 2 = $450). Since you have the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], when you hit the offsuit 7 will appear innocuous to your opponents, so you might well be able to make this much.

[It's unlikely your opponents are holding a 7 here, so your chances of spiking are probably a bit better.]

There will be times your pocket 7s hold up, times you get a free river card and spike, and rare times you backdoor a flush that wins. [You might also make a set and lose.]

All in all, it's not as clear a fold situation as it might first appear. In a bigger game, where the flop bet is less likely to mean the bettor has a jack, a raise might even be in order.

[mr pink]

how much would your response change if you knew it was from a 2/4 game instead of a 10/20? this is a cross post from small stakes, except the turn action was posted which some assumed skewed opinions.

[bicyclekick]

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My thought here is that this is a classic fold or raise.
A call doesn't accomplish what you desperately need, which is narrow the field. So a call is out of the question IMHO.

I don't think a raise here is going to get anyone to fold unless someone three bets it, which is really bad for you too.

If I were 2nd to act I would raise putting the pressure on the two players behind me, but here I fold it. I don't think your raise makes anyone go away and there are just way to many turn/river cards that make your hand (which very well may be good right now) vulnerable.

I fold it for sure here. I raise it 100% of the time if I'm 2nd to act.

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How is this a classic raise or fold? Like you know, raising doesn't thin the field. Folding doesn't make sense, you could easily have the best hand. You could also spike a set. Call and see the turn action.

[SpaceAce]

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Why is that wrong?
Why do I necessarily have to improve?
Why do I need to hit a set?



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Why did you bother to post this hand?

SpaceAce

[ErrantNight]

because the correct answer is call and sometimes fold if you have some reads or your at a limit where it's less likely the two callers are complete donks. and the popular answer is raise, which is the most wrong (except in circumstances where it's clearly best to continue, in which case it takes second place to calling)

and it generated the world's most unnecessarily long post and I encouraged him to post it here in the hopes that some other highly regarded posters would take a shot at it

[radioheadfan]

With a PF raiser betting and two player callings, how are you not convinced that your hand is no good?

Tell me what the other two players have.

This is a FOLD and it's not even close.