stop trying to 'protect' your hand

[dvashun]

Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I think the situations are different. Most of what I see posted regarding protecting a hand is "AK flops Axx" where xx is suited or induces straight draws and people would like to get a line or consolation because they are steaming a bit. What you appear to be talking about is something like having QTo in the blind and hitting the ten as top pair. Similar but slightly different, in both situations I think the "correct" play most of the time is to bet for value. I am guilty of posting one of the Axx hands and the response made complete sense. If the pot is relatively large, just bet for value, you are not going to be able to protect your hand. SSHE states the same thing in the section about protecting your hand. The example he has about CR'ing to protect your hand specifically mentions that the person to your right raised preflop. In that scenario, this tactic is effective because of the conditions at the table. Most of the time bet for value.

[hicherbie]

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That is not the same thing as betting for value, they are two different subjects. For example i have K9 and i middle pair of 9's, and someoen bets into me and i raise on the flop to push out draws and to buy some outs, "to protect my hand" this may or may not be the best hand but i'm trying to make it less likly someoen will draw out on me. That is much difffern't that say flopped top 2 pair and raising for value.

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when you read a lot of micro posts about protecting your hand, it is refering to how to prevent the noobs from sucking out on you when you have a good hand. (like a set on a drawey board). what fuji was saying was that in a lot of these games protecting your hand just isnt possible...at least to a flush/straight and sometimes two pair draw. with a set on flop w/two to a flush on these games, you should bet/raise the flop for value rather than raise on the turn so that opps will have to face two cold (see my post above for my reasoning). he has quotation marks around protect in the title of this thread because a lot of people dont understand when a hand can and cannot be "protected"

[Sasnak]

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That is not the same thing as betting for value, they are two different subjects. For example i have K9 and i middle pair of 9's, and someoen bets into me and i raise on the flop to push out draws and to buy some outs, "to protect my hand" this may or may not be the best hand but i'm trying to make it less likly someoen will draw out on me. That is much difffern't that say flopped top 2 pair and raising for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you read a lot of micro posts about protecting your hand, it is refering to how to prevent the noobs from sucking out on you when you have a good hand. (like a set on a drawey board). what fuji was saying was that in a lot of these games protecting your hand just isnt possible...at least to a flush/straight and sometimes two pair draw. with a set on flop w/two to a flush on these games, you should bet/raise the flop for value rather than raise on the turn so that opps will have to face two cold (see my post above for my reasoning). he has quotation marks around protect in the title of this thread because a lot of people dont understand when a hand can and cannot be "protected"

[/ QUOTE ]

Protecting your hands against a chaser is where the term "Race" comes into play.

How many times have you flopped something decent with 3-4 others in the hand? You know you're a current favorite at the time, but there are two more cards to come.

You grit your teeth and keep clicking the raise button like some old lady in a slot tournament! Then win or lose, you open the HH up to see what the hell these mopes were chasing your @ss down with! LOL

[Emmitt2222]

This is what makes the small stakes o so profitable, you can't necesarily "protect" your hand the way it is being discused, but you can give people incorrect odds to call. When they do call, your hand isn't protected, but you just profited.

Hooray for Sklansky bucks. The more you think of this as making theoretical money, the less the bad beats will affect you.

[SCfuji]

i apologize if i sounded annoyed, but i was. when i posted this i think i saw three "how can i protect my hand" posts in a row. there are a couple things that i have come to realize:

1) if somebody has a draw, then they wont fold unless they have half a brain and the pot size is 2sb. if your set gets beat by the flush on the river, then you just got beat. you did what you could, but if the 3rd spade comes it comes.

2) you want people with their weak mid pairs and bottom pairs calling all the way and on 5th unimproved. and again, if they catch their two pair or trips on the river so be it. you did what you could and got beat by the deck. unless you have some special hack nothing is really going to protect your hand... you can give worse odds for people lingering with weaker hands that are still live against your tptk but that is about all you can do. most of the time you will destroy these people. let them have a pot or two - it keeps them coming back until they go broke.

[SCfuji]

what is SSHE (can you spell it out for me)? ive only read "Play Poker Like the Pros" by my favorite author and poker pro Phil Hellmuth, Jr.

[RobMay]

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Protecting your hand doesn't always mean you want your opponents to fold - you can protect your hand by making sure anyone who's going to call anyway isn't getting the right odds to beat you.

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This is the same thing as 'betting for value'.

Because you have more equity in the pot then they do, they are contributing more than their share. So... it is for value.

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That was exactly my point. The OP seemed to imply that protecting your hand meant forcing a fold. But like you say, so long as you have the equity advantage, you are still protecting your hand by betting for value when it puts your opponents in a lose-lose situation. You you don't care if they fold or call - either way they lose.

The OP's call to 'bet for value' over and over could be taken to mean just bet out when it's your turn to act.

The way I see it, protecting your hand means getting even more value by, for example, check-raising to face your opponents with double bets. Especially in big pots, where even if betting out would be for value, an opponent could still call for value (eg with a gutshot if the pot is offering 10-1).

I think! This thread is making me get my definitions confused!

[SCfuji]

think about the way the posters that have the "how do i protect my hand" posts define "protect". im trying to get through to them in a way that they will understand.

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protecting your hand means getting even more value by, for example, check-raising

[/ QUOTE ]

i did mention you could go for check raises and later streets to show your true strength.

[RobMay]

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i apologize if i sounded annoyed, but i was. when i posted this i think i saw three "how can i protect my hand" posts in a row.

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Yeah, mine was one of them! Sorry about that!

[DavidC]

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what is SSHE (can you spell it out for me)? ive only read "Play Poker Like the Pros" by my favorite author and poker pro Phil Hellmuth, Jr.

[/ QUOTE ]

bloody flat view! I can't tell if someone's already responded to this:

Small Stakes Hold'em, by Ed Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth

It's an okay book, I guess, if you like money. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit: D'oh! I think I missed your sarcasm. I know your posts are damn-good, but it's possible that you could learn that through other means... f-cking Helmuth, though, eh? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]