trips on the flop - deep stack

scooby · #1 03-29-2005, 02:05 PM

I have some pretty good reads here, but I'm not sure what line to take. SB is tricky but a bit loose. BB is TAG, and likes leading me along- we played a hand earlier where I had A8 and he had qq and the flop came down 88Q- he didn't take my whole stack only because the river was a Q, but he checked the flop and bet small on the turn on that hand. Anyway...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

SB ($1043)
BB ($7826.75)
UTG ($842)
MP ($474.75)
Hero ($3018.5)

I'm on the button with a good drawing hand and deep stacks...seems normal enough raise.

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5. MP posts a blind of $15.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, Hero raises to $35, SB (poster) calls $30, BB calls $25, MP calls $25.

Flop: ($145) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets $45, Hero calls $45, SB raises to $90, BB calls $90, MP folds, Hero calls $45.

Should I reraise after SB checkraises?

Turn: ($460) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $125, Hero calls $125, SB calls $125.

Comments here? Should I put a big raise in?

River: ($835) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $200.

What's my play?

freemoney · #2 03-29-2005, 02:54 PM

call, at the river you have to, i would of raised the flop to about 125, it doesnt give away the strength of your hand and i think gains a pretty good amount of information on the rest of the players in pot

Kaz The Original · #3 03-29-2005, 03:50 PM

Atleast you got a 10 kicker out of the turn and river.

freemoney · #4 03-29-2005, 04:12 PM

yeah i mean the most likely hand the sb has with a 6 is is 67, there is a nice raise preflop. i think its very possible bb had a hand like QQ, and SB had flush draw but picked up aces and 6s. i would expect you to win this pot

Kaz The Original · #5 03-29-2005, 04:13 PM

The problem with the hand is I hate going call call call with a flush draw on board. But they're sort of betting them selves out of it I guess.

freemoney · #6 03-29-2005, 05:21 PM

thats why i raise the flop, im saying at the river you have to call though you are getting like 5-1 on your money

creedofhubris · #7 03-29-2005, 09:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have some pretty good reads here, but I'm not sure what line to take. SB is tricky but a bit loose. BB is TAG, and likes leading me along- we played a hand earlier where I had A8 and he had qq and the flop came down 88Q- he didn't take my whole stack only because the river was a Q, but he checked the flop and bet small on the turn on that hand. Anyway...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

SB ($1043)
BB ($7826.75)
UTG ($842)
MP ($474.75)
Hero ($3018.5)

I'm on the button with a good drawing hand and deep stacks...seems normal enough raise.

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5. MP posts a blind of $15.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, Hero raises to $35, SB (poster) calls $30, BB calls $25, MP calls $25.

Flop: ($145) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets $45, Hero calls $45, SB raises to $90, BB calls $90, MP folds, Hero calls $45.

Should I reraise after SB checkraises?

Turn: ($460) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $125, Hero calls $125, SB calls $125.

Comments here? Should I put a big raise in?

River: ($835) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $200.

What's my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee you no one is putting you on a six due to your preflop raise. I in fact believe you are ahead the whole way and I think you should've raised somewhere, probably the turn, in case SB is pushing some kind of combo draw.

Calling the river seems better than raising, in case there's a boat out there and to encourage a weaker hand to call behind.

Cornell Fiji · #8 03-30-2005, 12:23 AM

***DISREGARD, I MISREAD STACK SIZES***

Thought the BB had the SBs stack.

The way it was played out (given the logic below) I would probably raise about 600 more on the end.
-------------------------

I disagree with all responses so far.

I push this river a little bit more than 99% of the time here.

I don't even really see what everyone is afraid of. AA should have reraised preflop but also would have played the flop differently. TT is possible but there is NO way to expect it more than one of the many other possible holdings. A six with a better kicker? Possible but if so it is most likely 67s or 78s in which case you would chop. A6s is possible but again, there is no reason to think that he has this more than another holding.

If you are going to make any raise on the end I think that the push is easily the correct play a raise of 200-400 will be percieved as being stronger than a push and if a person is willing to call a 300 raise here then they almost always would be calling a push.

What does the villain think that you have here? Given the action he has to put your most likely holding as an overpair. If this is the case then he should call you with his A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] that just spiked top pair. In fact, if the villain thinks that the chance of you having JJ-KK is 1/3 as likely as you having a hand like 67s then he should call a push on the end if his nut flush draw just spiked an ace. In reality, I think that the villain would have a 6 in the back of his mind, but he will not think that you will have it more than 2/3 of the time with your preflop raise.

Given what the villain thinks that you have, he should call a push on the end with any ace.

Given the TAG image we have to assume that the villain does not have a 6 (but when he does we are usually chopping.) He could have TT/AA, A9s+. The pf smoothcall and check - overcall on the flop really diminishes AA as a holding.

There are 3 ways the villain could have TT. If the villain does have TT the pf/flop betting might be congruent (although he would only overcall the flop if he thought that the SB would raise to isolate) but the turn and river would be poor playing with his underbets.

His underbet on the river screams of a blocking bet. I am confident that he has a nut flush draw that just hit a piece, he doesnt want to call a big river bet but that doesn't mean that he won't call getting nearly 3:1 on the end.

The math is close but given the way that the villain played the hand I think that the edge is still significant enough that I would push here every time.

-Steve

freemoney · #9 03-30-2005, 12:36 AM

you call the 200 and raise 2500? The BB has 7000 behind him, he isnt calling with any ace, you are only getting called by better hands, and hands you beat fold and you win the same amount. i said i raise the flop, but pushing all in on the river is very bad as you lose the chance of a SB overcall.