Question,Question

[xerxesthegod]

You are UTG with pocket Aces you raise and four players cold call.
The flop comes Kh,9s,10s now you check (betting earns you almost nothing. You can't protect your hand by betting here everyone with a draw would have the odds to call your bet and in this case if everyone checks and the button bets you can raise and maybe protect your hand) UTG+1 bets and everyone calls. In this situation a call will not give you any chance to protect you hand on the turn because the bettor is at your left . A raise will not protcet your hand either because they will probably all call your raise and you will have to bet on the turn because if you don't you may give them a free card as the flop bettor may be scared to bet now. SSH says that you should raise this flop anyhow. Your raise will be for value as you have no chances to protect your hand.
Now the question is:

Wouldn't a turn raise be better?????

the reasoning behind this is :

If you raise the flop you will probably get a SB from any player but you will have to bet the turn and some may fold on the turn (surely not the draws). Instead if one of players hits his draw on the turn you would have payed 1.5 SB (assuming you don't call his turn raise).
Now consider the other situation.
You call the flop and check the turn. If someone hits his hand on the turn you will probably know because of the action (the bettor will probably bet and a raise will be in order if someone hits his hand) this way you just saved 1.5 SB
and if nobody hits his draw :
if the bettor bets and some call the bet you can raise and earn 1 BB per calling player (your hand gets much more value than just raising the flop).
if the bettor doesn't bet someone else will probably bet as it's a multiway pot and you can raise and protcet your hand if the bet comes from your right.

Tell me what you think.

[Ianco15]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop comes Kh,9s,10s now you check (betting earns you almost nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I only read this far. Unless you are confident that you can check raise in this situation you should bet. If you check and it gets checked around you are giving opponents infinite odds to draw against you. Betting at least gives limited odds to people who are drawing.

[mantasm]

The bet is for value. No, betting doesn't protect your hand, but you're likely making money every time someone calls on the flop.

[twang]

If this was an actual example from SSH I can't seem to find it. I assume none of you aces are spades, which would give you the possibility to pick up a nut flush draw on the turn.

Anyway, here are my 2 cents:

I think the check-call line on the flop is fine. Assuming a blank falls on the turn, bet the turn and the flop bettor will do the raising for you. He will probably raise you and force the rest of the field to call two big bets cold, which probably knocks out the weaker draws and lower pairs (i.e. protecting your aces). Of course, the flop bettor might have a set, a made straight or a flush draw, but there's not much we could do about that, is it? Considering the fact that the flop bettor and the others called two cold preflop, they are more likely two have TPTK or an ace, in which case you are ahead.

That said, I'd autobet a flop like this for value 99% of the time and hope for the best.

/twang

[xerxesthegod]

It's almost sure someone will bet this flop. You are alost certain you don't give a free card here. the pot is multiway and yoy have a board with high cards and people cold called a preflop raise so it's almost sure you are not giving a free card here even a flush drawing hand would bet in this situation.

[xerxesthegod]

Here you repeat what I said in my post. Yes you bet for value and you don't protect your hand. But a turn raise could give much more value to your pocket aces as the bets are doubled and if there is alot of action you can easily fold and save 1.5 SB (you would pay 1BB on the flop with your raise and your bet on the turn would be 1BB). the only problem this may cause is that you just probably don't know where you are at on the turn and may finish folding a better hand.

[xerxesthegod]

I generally auto bet that flop too but I was just wondering how I could win and get much more value for my aces.
Actually this is not an example of SSH I just used a concept of SSH.
And I doubt the flop bettor would raise you if you bet the turn I think a check raise would be better this way you can see the action before betting maybe someone completed his straight or flush and reraises the flop bettor. The only problem is that you don't know where you are at on the turn and my fold your pocket aces if too much action on the flop even if you are still ahead.

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
And I doubt the flop bettor would raise you if you bet the turn I think a check raise would be better this way you can see the action before betting maybe someone completed his straight or flush and reraises the flop bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this is read dependant, but I'd say that there is a fair chance that the flop bettor would raise your turn bet.

What is pretty certain though, is that he will bet the turn if you check. You suggest that a check-raise here would be good, but I disagree. Unless the flop bettor checks and a turn bet comes from your immediate right, the CR doesn't protect your hand because everyone who called the flop bettors' turn bet will call your CR (assuming the turn bettor doesn't 3-bet).

IMHO it's better to bet into the flop bettor because there is a chance that he'd push the others off the pot but you still have the position to see the action before it comes back to you. Of course everyone flat-calling your turn bet is a possibilty too, but it wouldn't be that bad.

Obviously, all this is assuming the turn card looks safe.

/twang

[xerxesthegod]

[ QUOTE ]
What is pretty certain though, is that he will bet the turn if you check. You suggest that a check-raise here would be good, but I disagree. Unless the flop bettor checks and a turn bet comes from your immediate right, the CR doesn't protect your hand because everyone who called the flop bettors' turn bet will call your CR (assuming the turn bettor doesn't 3-bet).

[/ QUOTE ]


I do agree that you can't protect here(and I didn't say that you can) but you can value raise and that's the point I was trying to make, your pocket aces get much more value here compared to the flop raise.I don't think betting here is a good solution because if someone hits his draw he will probably reraise the flop bettor so you just lose 1BB for nothing. The other point of checking the turn is to see the action behind you.

[twang]

I'm not sure the main objective in a situation like this should be to build the pot for value. You have a strong hand, but it's pretty vulnerable and needs protection. If you bet the turn on a safe card five things could happen:

1) The flop bettor raises and the others fold. This is good, because the flop bettor probably has TPTK and you'll probably win a decent pot.

2) The flop bettor raises and one or both call two BB cold. This is pretty good too. You can't assume that you are beaten here. You'll probably win a big pot if no one hits a draw.

3) The flop bettor and the others flat calls. This is ok. You have a fair chance to win a decent sized pot if no one hits a draw and you didn't waste a fortune if you are sucked out on.

4) The flop bettor flat calls but it is raised behind him. This is not so good. This looks like a slowplayed flopped straight or set. Call, hoping for another ace (which could complete a straight or a flush for someone) or fold? It depends. You are not closing the action and you might be drawing dead so folding wouldn't be bad. I hate turn raises.

5) The flop bettor raises, but is 3-bet behind him. Here you could probably fold without feeling bad.

Again, all this is assuming the turn card is a blank.

Anyways, this is how I probably would have played if I had checked-called the flop.

/twang