New to the forums, thought I would post a hand

redrooski24 · #1 03-26-2005, 08:01 AM

Well first off, I've been browsing these forums just reading posts and thinking about all the hands and ideas being put up, but I feel like I should contribute. Anyway, I felt like posting an interesting hand I was involved in.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

SB ($88.5)
BB ($53)
UTG ($163.1)
UTG+1 ($53.3)
MP1 ($220.02)
MP2 ($99)
MP3 ($100)
Hero ($94.75)
Button ($90.8)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 3 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $3.50, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $3.

Flop: ($13) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $10, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $74.50.

Turn: ($97.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($97.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $97.50

Do you usually make this call. I felt like he may have been C/R with just the top pair trying to push me out of the hand since i was in LP and raised, maybe looking like i was representing more strength than I had? Feedback is appreciated, and I'll post results later if you guys are interested.

For some reason it is not showing that SB went all in after my bet, but that's what I called, with a final pot of $179

Tilt · #2 03-26-2005, 09:37 AM

Welcome

Its kinda hard to read the hand history...you got pushed into on the flop, right? If thats the case, its a hard call that I would make more often than I would fold here. But it is table dynamic and player dependent....sometimes you need to lay the aces down here, as some players will make this move with trips or two pair. It depends on whether your respect level for you ropponent warrants it, but its like an 80% call IMO.

elcap · #3 03-26-2005, 01:35 PM

I agree this is a tough call but one I would probably make. You gotta think what are the hands he has that he would do that with. AK probably, KQ maybe, QJ maybe, J9 maybe, then there are K10 and possible small trips which of course you don't want to see. The thing is with those big hands would he move in right away? I think it is more likely with K10 than trips but he could do it with either I'd assume. It would be nice if you had some read on the guy but considering the range of hands you beat enough of them to make this call IMO. All that being said I think the weakest part of my game is overplaying overpairs and TPTK so I could be way off here. I am making another post similar to this hand where I think I may have overplayed the hand so I would welcome your comments on that one.

ClaytonN · #4 03-26-2005, 02:40 PM

Welcome to the forums!

Do you have any reads on SB?

Looks like a crying call to me. I'd hate to do it, but I would.

crazygoose · #5 03-26-2005, 03:27 PM

i think it is a bit of a wierd spot for the SB to push with. if he did have a monster, with the range of hands hes probably putting you on, at best you have 6 outs to beat his trips, so i cant see him not slowplaying it a bit more. two pair is a fair possibility (K10s most likely).
your 2/3 the pot sized bet could have indicated some weakness to the villain and he might think you missed AQ or have QQ, JJ. i would call. i would put him on KQ KJ.

gulebjorn · #6 03-26-2005, 04:15 PM

Answered it before, and i'm writing it down again, allthough i'll probably get flamed for being weak: i'd fold this almost every time. All you're beating here is top pair, and at 100$ NL, people know they need more than top pair to push into someone who just bet 3/4 pot. I'd say about 80% of the time, or maybe even more, you're beat. Remember what they say about AA: it wins you small pots and loses you big pots. Postflop that is.

All of this of course applies to the typical weak-tight online opponent. If you have a read on this guy as a maniac or as always overplaying top pair, ignore what i said.

EDIT: welcome to the forums.

redrooski24 · #7 03-27-2005, 03:50 AM

I will admit that playing overpairs, esp KK and AA is a huge leak in my game postflop, as I can never seem to lay it down. Anyway, the guy had K8 and the turn and river didnt help me out. I called the push because I was on a streak of a couple hands previously where I raised PF and always bet near the pot size(I usually always bet 3/4 the pot unless there are huge draws, in which case I would bet over the pot) and took down those hands with no opposition. I felt like the SB was trying to brush me off with just his top pair...bad mistake. I had no reads on the guy as I was relatively new to the table.

bigt439 · #8 03-27-2005, 12:55 PM

I know that you already posted the results so I hope you don't view this reply as a results oriented, because I was thinking it as I read down the whole forum. I regularily play that game and have been crushing it in the last few months. The few months before that I broke even and there was one large change I made. I stopped four tabling and started two tabling, while taking notes and checking hand histories. In a situation like this having a read on a person is invaluable, because it is almost always the difference between a good call and a bad one. Now if you did not have a read on the person, the decision is obviously less clear, but it is one I fold almost every time. Since I started two tabling I stopped making crying calls with one pair largely from the advice of this forum and I can undoubtedly say I have plugged a huge leak in my game. From what I've seen after about half a year of playing these games for roughly 25h/week I was going to tell you this guy had KT, or maybe bottom set. Top and bottom two makes sense too. Fold these situations with no read, but look for reads on people because making calls in these situations against the RIGHT people is where most of your profit will come from.

manhus · #9 03-27-2005, 02:00 PM

I am also new to the forums, and quite new to the game. I have been reading in this forum a lot, and I see that most of the players are much better than I am - they can always read their opponents' cards. For the mortals among us that can't do it, I would like to address this problem from a game theory point of view.
Say I have a pair of 6's, I called a 4$ raise, and missed the flop completely (guess what - KT8 rainbow). I check, villain bets 10$, the third guy folds, and now it's my turn heads up. obviously I am beat, but hey, maybe I can try a bluff, and bet 3.5 times the pot (74$) - that will make the guy fold his hand !
Obviously the bluff will work sometimes, the guy wouldn't call any hand here, what hands will he call with ? say he calls only with a set (two pair is impossible anyway) - which makes for 9 possible hands (3xKK,TT,88), and fold all the rest - AA,AK,AT,KQ,KJ,QQ,JJ,99,and all the bluffs and semi-bluffs (AJ, lower pair, etc), which accounts for about 70 hands, since some are less likely, perhaps, than KK TT 88 for the bets made so far, lets say in probablity terms they are equivalent to only 50 hands. In this case, instead of getting zero, I get 9 times -74$, and 50 times +22$. (-693 + 1100 / 58) = +7$ on expectation. Nice bluff.
So, if you decide to call only with a set, you are letting the villain get 1/3 of the pot by expectation whenever he decides to make a pure bluff. It's much worse when it's a semi bluff, because he might be called and then make the hand (even here he will make trips about 8% of the times, and then win 74+22=96$, which makes his real expectation 14$ !!!).
So what is the counter strategy to prevent villain from stealing our pot time and again when we are quite certain that we are ahead ? of course, call with more hands. For a 3.5 pot size bet you have to call at least 30% of the hands, and probably more when you are so likely a-priori to be winning, to prevent the "random all-in" strategy from being successful.
The answer to your question should be devided to two :
1. What percentage of the hands should I call with ? (around 30%)
2. Is my hand in the top 30% of the hands I represented with my bet so far ? (yes !! It's the best possible hand except set).

It's a no-problem call.

By the way - the upside of calling is that even if you are wrong, and find K8 as it was, you have 4 outs on the turn, and 7 on the river if you missed the turn - more than 20% to win it anyways...

Hope this post hand been useful.

gulebjorn · #10 03-27-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to address this problem from a game theory point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) As Sklansky pointed out in ToP: game theory offers a solution when you are facing an opponent who is more skilled than you are. At these levels, they shouldn't be, and game theory really doesn't enter into it IMO.

2) I violated my own rule today, and paid for it.

Interpoker's 0.50-1$ PL full ring
I post 0.50$ in SB with AA. Seven (7!) limps, i bet pot (8.50$), i get five (5!) callers.

Flop comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet 10$ (mistyped, wanted to bet 20$), UTG raised allin (about 50$), i called, he showed bottom set.