Who calls in this scenario?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
The "pot shot" as you describe is directed at that point. The reason for it is that in terms of very active posters giving frequent advice on this forum, yours is all too often off the mark. It would do you some good to post less and read more.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does this opinion represent the forum here? If so, I'll leave.

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I guess we've refuted this statement of yours.


Quote:
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I'm tough skinned, I don't mind the bashing...

[/ QUOTE ]

You got me. Today has gotten under my skin. But thanks, it's thoughtful comments like yours that really make me happy to be a member of this forum.

[citanul]

Please stop using "Do you see why?" it's making it very hard to be nice to the posters in this forum.

citanul

PS: that is not just for scuba, but for everyone. especially people who are wrong.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Another difference from your thinking is that I certainly would be less inclined to make the call with 4 left and T7s. I wouldn't expect someone who preaches folding 88 in an unraised pot to understand that level of thinking. DYSW?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you'd like to explain it? I'd take this gamble every single time 4 handed. I also think it would be plainly idiotic to not do so. So perhaps you'd like to explain it to the class without trashing Scuba, just because he's the flavor of the day.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "pot shot" as you describe is directed at that point. The reason for it is that in terms of very active posters giving frequent advice on this forum, yours is all too often off the mark. It would do you some good to post less and read more.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does this opinion represent the forum here? If so, I'll leave.

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I guess we've refuted this statement of yours.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm tough skinned, I don't mind the bashing...

[/ QUOTE ]

You got me. Today has gotten under my skin. But thanks, it's thoughtful comments like yours that really make me happy to be a member of this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

scuba,

i know you're having a bad day, and people are taking really stupid shots at you (for instance, bball over here, who is wrong, and maybe knows he's wrong, so he's bringing in a thread that has nothing to do with this thread to try to defend his actions), but really. you're just being silly with this "if so, i'll leave" nonsense. personally, i don't really care if people who are wrong post frequently. and yes, you're wrong sometimes. it is the point of the forums, not just to read the opinions of the learned few, or whatever, but to have discussions from the others as well. i'm pretty sure that there's a chunk of us who really, truly, rarely play a hand that we sit and think about, and then still really desire more opinions advice from other players about the hand. a forum populated by just those people posting would be very dull. similarly, say an inexperienced person posts a question, and has some ideas all messed up in their heads. they, and other inexperienced people often learn more from trying to explain why they think something wrong is right, and then learning why they are wrong, and what is right, than just having someone hit them in the back of the head with a stick. this, btw, is not the same as the recent rash of new posters giving me headaches by not using the search function. that's completely different, and hopefully will be dealt with in the majority by the faq. for now, this is the end of this particular one paragraphed rant.

btw, bball, in case you don't understand: you're a dick.

citanul

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing Irie is that u have 2 to 1 odds to call. Folding those odds is not making better desicions than the rest of the field IMO


[/ QUOTE ]

At the $215s, this line of thinking is much more valuable than the levels Scuba plays.

[ QUOTE ]

if you lose the all-in you can still make better desicions than everyone else afterwards anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, one of the better decisions you can make is to fold in the OP situation.

Yugoslav

[valenzuela]

I think youre being kinda unfair to me and you should admit the call is right, the whole thread is basically about whether the fold is right or not. You clearly dont have a solid background to say ure sure folding winning 40% of the time is correct. Why the call is right?( apart from the ICM calculator) because you have 2 to 1 pot odds, and you can eliminate one player. Ive said really stupid stuff in this forum and the better players have corrected me, now I give my point of view to a stronger player( 99% sure Im right) and suddenly ICM analysis isnt perfect, come on give me some credit.

[Scuba Chuck]

Look V, if I'm coming on a little strong, well, I'm sure you can tell why. Your comments felt like they were beginning to be along the lines of bball904's comments (see above). If that was not your intent, then you don't deserve any of my meek ire.

Second of all, I post these difficult hands on purpose. I was acutely aware of the pot odds, and I elected to fold. I thought this would be a good forum discussion.

And yes, ICM does have it's flaws. For example, it assumes all players are of equal ability. Due to the fact that I believe I am better than the field, I don't think playing for an additonal 20 or 30 chips on average here makes sense. IMO, I can make it to ITM most of the time with my current stack in this situation. But, if I lost 250 chips here, I think it definately reduces my ITM % (and thus ROI %). In the end, I came to the conclusion that it was better for my ROI to fold this marginal hand.

BTW, I'm not sure how many people are aware of the inefficiencies of ICM. In general, it is an extremely useful tool. But, when the results are thin, there are other factors to consider.

[bball904]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another difference from your thinking is that I certainly would be less inclined to make the call with 4 left and T7s. I wouldn't expect someone who preaches folding 88 in an unraised pot to understand that level of thinking. DYSW?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you'd like to explain it? I'd take this gamble every single time 4 handed. I also think it would be plainly idiotic to not do so. So perhaps you'd like to explain it to the class without trashing Scuba, just because he's the flavor of the day.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'll try. 4 handed button T344, you bb T969, other 2 stacks clearly very healthy.

You call and lose: you T625, button T738 ... not good

Fold: you T869, button T494 and still desperate.

In this case I'm less inclined to gamble for 2 reasons. 1) My chances of doing better than 3rd and much less than the 6 handed original situation. 2) I am close to the money with a healthy chip advantage. 6 handed with T869 is still miles from the money and virtually no more chip advantage or disadvantage than having T625 would be.

IMO, this is a marginal call 6 handed and a clear fold 4 handed.

[ QUOTE ]
btw, bball, in case you don't understand: you're a dick.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand. Let's just call it my style. I do think it's more effective in making points in certain situations and I do enjoy it.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
You call and lose: you T625, button T738 ... not good

Fold: you T869, button T494 and still desperate.

In this case I'm less inclined to gamble for 2 reasons. 1) My chances of doing better than 3rd and much less than the 6 handed original situation. 2) I am close to the money with a healthy chip advantage. 6 handed with T869 is still miles from the money and virtually no more chip advantage or disadvantage than having T625 would be.

IMO, this is a marginal call 6 handed and a clear fold 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a new player so please be easy on me until I get my official 2+2 flak jacket. I've been tracking my SNG's for about a month now and my ITM is good while my ROI stinks. Obviously I'm folding into too many 3rds, and from what I've gathered reading here this means my bubble play isn't near agressive enough. Even if calling this 4-handed gives you a bigger chance you're gonna bust out, doesn't the advantage you might get post-bubble if/when you do win the pot make it worth it--because you'll have a better shot at 1st?

Can any of the big-wigs correct my thinking?

[Seadood228]

[ QUOTE ]
So does this opinion represent the forum here? If so, I'll leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously doubt it Scuba. Remember that poker is a game where a good percantage of the better players tend to have enormous egos, and never is that more evident than on this site. People tend to take a subtle disagreement as an all out personal attack on their abilities as a player, and thus tend to react with their own vicious retorts.. Add to all this the anonymity of being online and, you can see where this is going.

Nobody on this site plays perfect poker. If they did they wouldn't be on here. Voicing your opinion and having it critiqued is all part of the learning process, and we ALL benefit from hearing another opinion, even if it differs from our own. It's just that some players tend to think that their way is the only way, which couldn't be further from the truth.