100-200 against stoxtrader

[Paluka]

I'm pretty happy that in one hand post, I was able to learn the screennames of 3 tough players on a site I might start playing on. Hot. Observing games like a loser finally pays off!

[Schneids]

Great discussion in this thread. Some random things:

1) I do not see at all how 3-betting this hand at any point is not related entirely to other hands (Gambler plz elaborate for my slow brain?). I think if you start 3-betting at any point on this hand, you absolutely have to be upping the percent of the time you do it with all other types of hands. If you don't start 3-betting JJ here for value or 55 or AK or a stone bluff, quite often, I see an AA 3-bet here as wasted water in a desert because as James has eluded to Stox is very, very, very rarely going to pay off the 3-bet with any hand other than a better one. So, to me, that means when you're playing a good opponent you need to find some sort of harmonious balance to your postflop play against him. You either keep almost all of it passive, and go for increased fold equity; or, keep almost all of it aggressive, and keep them on their toes so much that if you bet-3bet this turn often enough that they have to start making lots of loose payoffs. I further elaborate on this in point #3.

2) I think you need to bet this turn, because I think you need to give a smallish pocket pair a chance to checkraise this turn. As long as the board remains this raggedy and uncoordinated I think you're not going to see Stox fold a smallish PP.

3) Time for some controversy, though I hope you take me seriously because I'm being serious here: I honestly believe that, because your opponents are Laker and Stox (both as "solid" as they come), you should start smoothcalling with this hand X% (say mb 20%) of the time preflop. Both of these guys are rock solid, and, as you eluded to, they are going to most of the time pretty strongly put you on ~AQ+ and big PP. So again, in the scale of that harmonious balance thing, you either 3-bet a bigger range of hands to make you more difficult to play postflop (thus earning you mega EV on your big hands and even some EV early on as they make incorrect folds before adjusting to the fact you're loosening up), or, 3-bet less (to try to get more action postflop with your strong hands and to make them begin to fear your postflop check raises in HU/3 handed spots). As it is right now, I think you earn less money by always 3-betting with this hand preflop because they are good enough to know your range and not start to ever posture postflop against you. Like, if you just call, and either of them flop top pair GK or better, you're gonna probably get 3-4 bets out of them on the flop. Your 3-bet preflop pretty much effectively limits you to wanting to put in 1 bet per street (mb 2 on flop) because as you put in more than that you have to begin worrying you're beat quite a lot more often than normal. $50/100+ is so psycholigical, I truly believe you need to make one of these adaptions to make it so you're the one in control of your opponents and not the other way around -- because as it is in this hand, I feel like Stox is the one in control of you. Which matters.

[theBruiser500]

It sounds like it's ev+ for you to 3 bet preflop and then bet and raise and 3 bet stoxtrader with a lot of hands. You keep saying he will fold all worse hands than aces to a lot of action from you at any point in this hand, so make this play some of the time without aces and make him fold, and then make with aces and get him to pay you off.

[1800GAMBLER]

My quote was a quote of james' attitude. Not my opinion.

3 betting this hand is totally related to other hands, this hand is pretty pointless on it's own but you should be aiming so stox has a 0ev play with a hand like 88 if he raises you on the turn. If he correct folds you have an unbalanced turn 3 betting hand range i.e. too legit, if he correctly calls you're bluffing too much.

You need a perfect range against stox's range for every situation, for the turn bet, the turn 3 bet, for calling the turn and raising the river.

You could play this hand in a few different ways, each with their own EV for AA, some ways will have more and some ways less, but you should look to balance the EV of the range of hands in this move as a whole, not for each hand.

Remember how shania came about? 'If i play exclusively AA UTG it's +EV for UTG, if i add 22 and my opponets know this is more EV for UTG?'

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

My quote was a quote of james' attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, thanks. That's what I missed and should have realized. I thought you were saying something else. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[tolbiny]

"there was one really bad player making the game worth it."

was it you?

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For many reasons, this is not a hand that can go more than 2 bets on any street for me. Stoxtrader is a player folks

[/ QUOTE ]

you contradict yourself here
for you say stox is a player
but when he puts in any bets
your AA trembles with fear

[/ QUOTE ]

one thing I see
this much is clear
stox sits atop James
in the heirarchy of fear

[/ QUOTE ]

the big thing in this
is the one that i see
those poems that scan
top the hierarchy

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> but i think u also have to factor in a player's playing style, james seems like a more conservative player </font>

I really have to apologize that I'm not eloquent enough to type everything I'm thinking sometimes. I think you hit on the crux of what I originally set out to get across to James. Short handed play can be really difficult on the more conservative players. So you have to find spots to 3-bet these turns.

To hear James describe him, stoxplayer sounds like a mush. I went back and read some of his posts and he is anything but. He seems a very tough player who will take sore advantage of someone who thinks he must have a queen or better if he so much as touches his chips after the turn.

[Baulucky]

POTD

[Lestat]

<font color="red">Finally, the game was 6 handed, so it's not like this was 4 handed or something. </font>

Ahh, this does change things. In live 1-2 games we often start out 3 or 4 way and stay that way for hours until the crowd comes in. This is what I consider short handed. I assumed you were 4-way.

I could've saved some typing even though I still think you might be jumping the gun a little if a guy happens to touch his chips after 4th street on a QQX9 board.