AJ river play

PokerBob · #1 03-20-2005, 10:04 PM

I have no read on these 2 schmucks. What do you do with this river, and is it close?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $4.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (17.66 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ???????

pokerkai · #2 03-20-2005, 10:23 PM

I am betting, folding to a raise from any decent player, calling down a lag.

PokerBob · #3 03-20-2005, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am betting, folding to a raise from any decent player, calling down a lag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't sb's cold-call on the flop smell like a spade draw to you?

pokerkai · #4 03-20-2005, 10:41 PM

I had a hand with a similar ep coldcaller...and felt the same way. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...;o=14&vc=1

I think if its a close decision to raise in my situation...its most certainly a value bet in yours.

crunchy1 · #5 03-21-2005, 01:02 AM

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Doesn't sb's cold-call on the flop smell like a spade draw to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

...or 89 that's crippled because of the board pairing and the spade draw coming in. When BB only calls on the turn and SB has been passive the whole way I think you can value bet the river w/o much fear of being checkraised.

PF Note: Unless you're trying to isolate UTG+1 and/or take advantage of CO's dead money I think raising AJo is a little over-aggro. I have the same problem of feeling like I always have to raise with this hand. I'm trying to work limping with some hands like this into my game.

Harv72b · #6 03-21-2005, 01:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PF Note: Unless you're trying to isolate UTG+1 and/or take advantage of CO's dead money I think raising AJo is a little over-aggro. I have the same problem of feeling like I always have to raise with this hand. I'm trying to work limping with some hands like this into my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate a little on this? Because I'm having a really hard time coming up with an instance where I'd limp AJo 2nd in.

crunchy1 · #7 03-21-2005, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF Note: Unless you're trying to isolate UTG+1 and/or take advantage of CO's dead money I think raising AJo is a little over-aggro. I have the same problem of feeling like I always have to raise with this hand. I'm trying to work limping with some hands like this into my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate a little on this? Because I'm having a really hard time coming up with an instance where I'd limp AJo 2nd in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I was posting to Bob - if you're making this raise to isolate UTG+1 and you have good reads that you'll get folds behind you I'm not going to dispute the validity of that line. I'm not so sure it's a good thing if we're always raising with this hand in EP because we think it's the best hand - and I'm open to debate on that.

Limping with this hand is something I've been toying with after reading a post on here (some time ago) that discussed that we don't need to raise EVERY time we come first/second into a pot. I've also been reviewing SSH which lists this as a playable hand in EP but does not suggest raising with it.

I think a big factor here is my lack of positional advantage throughout the hand. This starts PF when I have no real idea of what is going to take place behind me. AJo is not a hand that plays well in a multiway pot and I'm not happy if that's the kind of pot that develops. I'm not convinced that in the low-limit games we can count on a raise knocking out all 7 people left to act behind me (w/o reads to the contrary).

I realize that you're not always getting calls behind when you raise but, in these loose low-limit games it's much more prone to happen. We've all seen the "waterfall effect" where a couple cold-calls to the direct left of the raiser allows for a larger range of hands to enter from late MP, CO, Button and Blind spots who are now getting good implied odds to call. Since a raise at low-limits often has little effect on pushing people out of the pot I think limping saves a SB.

These players who got good implied odds on their suited-connectors/small-pairs/broadway hands now also have the advantage of acting with good position for the rest of the hand. If these players are half-way decent this is going to win us less money when we flop ahead and lose us more money when we flop marginal/behind.

Even worse is when a TAG wakes up in LP with a big, dominating hand and 3-bets. Now we're getting those ugly reverse implied odds. Yet it comes back around to us for only 1 more SB PF and we have to call. I'm not excited about putting 3 SBs in PF out of position with only AJo.

Another factor would be the player types left to act behind me. As I said before, this could factor in raising to isolate. However, usually in those 7 left to act there will be a mix of player types - a couple fish, a couple TAGs, a LAG and a few somewhere in between. So what are they holding if your raise get called in 3-4 spots (IMO this is likely enough at the Party low-limits to be significant).

The FISH/LAGs could be holding any two random cards but, once you get a TAG or two in there you're pot equity starts to take a nose dive (TAGs are not just playing "any-two"). After looking at some hand ranges on pokerstove I'm finding that AJo is at a pot equity disadvantage over the ranges of hands I'm giving to the other players left to act (this is untrue if the hand would be suited and in that instance I AM raising every time).

So now we're playing out of position with low pot equity - this is BAD.

Discussion? Dispute? Debate?

Osric · #8 03-21-2005, 11:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am betting, folding to a raise from any decent player, calling down a lag.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this play. Looking at the board, I see a posible straight draw, a possible flush draw, possible trips, and maybe two pair. The calls from the blinds tells me they have SOMETHING, even if you can't get a read from them. The bet from the BB on the turn (after raises from Hero) also tells me that BB isn't afraid of a high pocket pair. He could have only called the turn so that he could keep the SB in to check raise on the river.

To me, this is an easy check. Something is going on here and top pair top kicker isn't enough to bet for value here imo

Fat Nicky · #9 03-21-2005, 11:35 AM

This is very close. BB coldcalling 2 on the flop then betting out the turn concerns me, although, i don't think he has trip 7s as he probably would have check-raised. SB cold-calling bets and raises on the flop and turn also concerns me, this player could have anything from a flush draw to Q-10. At a glance, this looks like a super thin value bet, IMO, folding if raised.

chief444 · #10 03-21-2005, 12:04 PM

I'd check. I don't think you're ahead very often. I like everything otherwise.