Was I outplayed here?

legend42 · #1 03-20-2005, 06:27 PM

This one's been in my craw for awhile. 20/40 live game, normal-loose, but this hand has only one MP limper to me on the button with QQ. I raise, BB 3-bets, limper folds, I call.

BB is decent-aggressive. About an hour before I played 97s from the button after many limpers, and made a full house to beat his underfull (pocket 4s) for a big pot. He winced noticably, and gave me a second look, but made no derisive comments, and hasn't been out of line or vengeful since then.

So the flop comes rainbow J J 5. The guy next to me spasms in a way that indicates a folded jack. BB checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is a ten (putting two clubs on board). He check-raises me. I call. River is an offsuit ace. He bets, I fold. He flashes me pocket 9s and drags the pot. Was I just owned?

(And of course any comments on my line are welcome)

lil feller · #2 03-20-2005, 06:35 PM

I'm confused...

[ QUOTE ]
The guy next to me spasms in a way that indicates a folded jack. BB checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is a ten (putting two clubs on board). He check-raises me. I call

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask yourself something...Say "self, why did I call the turn c/r?" If the answer is "because I think I'm beat but would really like to see a Q on the river..." then you made a terrible turn call...

If the answer is "because I think this spitefull little cheesball is taking a shot at me with a club draw, or some other hand that I can beat..." than ok, but why fold to the river bet? Do you really think he won't follow through on his c/r bluff even if he misses whatever he's representing? I would argue that you need to either:

1. 3 bet the turn, and if he has AA, KK, or AJ (the only plausible 3 betting hands PF that beat you at this point) He'll probably give you a free showdown.

2. Call the turn planning on calling the river regardless of what comes

3. Fold to the turn c/r.

Calling the turn bet and then folding on the river (even though its an Ace) makes zero sense to me.

And, obviously you got outplayed, you mucked the best hand...but it happens to all of us from time to time.

lf

legend42 · #3 03-20-2005, 07:12 PM

The reason I called the turn CR was because I thought he might be semi-bluffing with AcKc or AcQc (I didn't have the Qc). Even KcQc was a remote possibility that now beats me, though I don't think he would have 3-bet preflop with that, or with AJ.

As far as the 'outplayed' question, I'm just wondering whether he played it well, or got very lucky. While I could eliminate AJ (and probably JJ) from his hand, he couldn't eliminate it from mine, and I would check behind on the turn with underpairs and AK-AQ here. So my turn bet represents AJ, AA, TT, KK (all of which I don't fold on the river) a large portion of the time.

So I still don't hate my river fold, but I'm questioning it.

DcifrThs · #4 03-20-2005, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the 'outplayed' question, I'm just wondering whether he played it well, or got very lucky

[/ QUOTE ]

he was lucky you didn't call the river...i woulda played 99/88/TT the same way a lot of the time b/c it looks like you have AK a lot of the times more than QQ/KK/AA. he wasn't betting to get you to fold, he was betting to get o you call with AK.

now if that guy wincing means he had JJ then this guy is just gunna hve to show me that jack. no way i fold in that spot given the wince.

-Barron

lil feller · #5 03-20-2005, 08:03 PM

I think the key to this hand is to evaluate the range of hands he would 3 bet you with PF, and then go from there. If you don't think he'd do it with KQs, AJo or AJs, then it sounds like, on the turn, you are loosing only to AA and KK, right?

It means you are beating both AKs and AQs, and any smaller pair. There is one way for him to have AKclubs, and one way for him to have AQc, he would probably 3 bet with any pair 7's or larger PF, to try and get heads up, and there are 6 combinations of each pair. It sounds to me like he made a decision to represent AKs (with his turn c/r, as it makes no sense on the value of his hand), and then decided follow through with a river bet.

It comes down to this simple progression. You have to ask yourself what your opponent is representing, and you thought he was representing AK or AQ of clubs...a fair assesment. You then have to ask yourself whether or not you believe him...you did. You were wrong, but don't beat yourself up over it. your opponent did everything he could to make you believe he had A-big of clubs, and hadthe stones to bet a scary river card. He got lucky, but only in the sense that you believed him

lf

legend42 · #6 03-20-2005, 08:26 PM

The flop reaction came from another player who was out of the hand, and I doubt if the BB noticed it (it was the guy to my right). But that did tell me that one jack was likely dead, effectively eliminating JJ (and therefore ANY jack, given the preflop 3-bet) from the BB's range.

So I put him on AA, KK, AKs, AQs, TT. I considered a pocket underpair that might be trying to push me off AT (or like you said, get me to call with AK-AQ). But when the ace hit (which could have been a scare card for him) and he followed through, I thought I was beat by everything he could have.